Communication with partner

I was working a 3-person game this afternoon. I was the trail, tableside. Player A1 drives from the my area into the lead's area. A1 gets underneath the basket, and begins to pass the ball to A2, who is in the center's area. A1 gets hacked on the arm during the pass. Lead correctly calls the foul, but signals two shots. I walk past him before he reports and ask "hey did you know he was passing"? My partner ignores me and confronts me after the game about it. He says that I should not "question" his foul call, and says that even though I was trying to give him information that would have made the foul non-shooting, I should have kept that information to myself. Thoughts?

[rekent]

In my book, you were absolutely right. No such thing as too much information there, as long as it was approached as only being information and not trying to show your partner up or anything else of the sort.

[just another ref]

Hard to say without seeing the play. You gave him your opinion, with which he obviously did not agree. Is it possible that the player went up to shoot, then after contact, passed instead? You say it was in your partner's area, but you are sure you saw the play better than he did?

It would have to be a really big and obvious screwup before I would inject myself here without being asked.

[Bad Zebra]

Your partner sounds like the type of guy I hate working with. If sharing relevant info with him on a call is considered "questioning" a call, he is way too sensitive. I'll bet he loses it when someone grabs one in his primary.

Every association seems to have a few of these guys. My suggestion is to group them together and let them work together...they'd miss a lot of stuff but be happy about it because nobody called "in their" primary.

I think insecurity is the root of that attitude.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Hard to say without seeing the play. You gave him your opinion, with which he obviously did not agree. Is it possible that the player went up to shoot, then after contact, passed instead? You say it was in your partner's area, but you are sure you saw the play better than he did?

It would have to be a really big and obvious screwup before I would inject myself here without being asked.

If he passed instead the then I have it as a non-shooting foul. I've seen plenty of players go up for a shot and then decide to pass it instead.

Had this exact play with a long-time veteran in the new association I just joined and I walked past him and said "he passed the ball" and my partner changed it to a non-shooting foul and we had a throw-in on the endline.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

If he passed instead the then I have it as a non-shooting foul. I've seen plenty of players go up for a shot and then decide to pass it instead.

It is a judgment call, of course. But if, in my judgment, the player is attempting a try, but contact causes him to instead pass the ball, he gets two shots.

Originally Posted by just another ref

Is it possible that the player went up to shoot, then after contact, passed instead? You say it was in your partner's area, but you are sure you saw the play better than he did?

It would have to be a really big and obvious screwup before I would inject myself here without being asked.

It is completely possible that the player went up to shoot but passed after contact. I saw the pass better than the lead, but it is his final decision. It is not as though I am overruling him. I was simply providing him information, but he got pissed anyway and told me not to do that in the future.

If the player was fouled on the pass, there would have been no shots. Instead we were shooting two. That seems like an important enough situation to warrant my approaching him unasked. I guess I am more asking when I should give a partner unasked advice? I guess it depends a lot on the person, because some are sensitive as mentioned above.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by seanwestref

It is completely possible that the player went up to shoot but passed after contact. I guess I am more asking when I should give a partner unasked advice?

Not here, if you ask me.

[JRutledge]

Again this game is about angles. If someone comes to me and clearly sees a pass, then they are not going to get a shooting foul.

Then if a player clearly passes despite what his intentions were at the time of the foul call, it is not my mind to read his mind, I am going to give him the benefit of the last thing he did. Had a coach this past week make that point but the his player clearly passed the ball. Otherwise if you cannot tell what they were doing as they were going to the basket or in a shooting motion, then I am always going to think they are shooting.

Peace

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by just another ref

It is a judgment call, of course. But if, in my judgment, the player is attempting a try, but contact causes him to instead pass the ball, he gets two shots.

not a chance a person who passes the ball is getting two free throws from me. doesnt matter what his intentions were before contact if he throws a pass instead of shooting the ball he has not attempted to score a goal and should not be awarded free throws.

as for the op, i have no problem letting a partner know that the play resulted in a pass rather than a shot and i dont know why any official would be offended when a partner offers information.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by johnny d

not a chance a person who passes the ball is getting two free throws from me. doesnt matter what his intentions were before contact if he throws a pass instead of shooting the ball he has not attempted to score a goal and should not be awarded free throws.

So you're saying if a player is shooting a layup and is knocked to the floor before the release, but instinctively shoves the ball toward a teammate at the last instant, he doesn't get free throws?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by just another ref

So you're saying if a player is shooting a layup and is knocked to the floor before the release, but instinctively shoves the ball toward a teammate at the last instant, he doesn't get free throws?

I'm saying that if he isn't.

Peace

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I'm saying that if he isn't.

This is very wrong.

[JetMetFan]

We can always wait a beat and see what the player does after contact. If A1 is going up for a layup, gets hit and then passes the ball...from what I was taught, he just cost himself FTs. If the contact makes it so he can't release the ball on a shot, that's another story. Sure there's judgment involved but the player will solve the issue for us if we wait a second.

As for providing information, that's a tough one. It wasn't in your area but you followed the play, which isn't wrong since it started in your area. The other way to at least put it in your partner's mind would've been to ask him as he goes by "Possession or shots?" Once he gives his answer, move on.

[Camron Rust]

By rule, if the player was shooting when they were fouled, they're going to the line. It doesn't matter what they do next. Nothing says they have to finish the shot to be in the act of shooting. Their shot was stopped by the foul and I'm not going to reward a defender who fouls such that the shot becomes impossible and the shooter, not knowing for sure if a foul will even be called, instead tries to salvage the play. Anything else is shortchanging the shooter.