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Old Tue Oct 12, 2004, 11:48am
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Jurrasic you should get a kick out of this.

I swear some of the garbage they put in these "Guides" is terrible... terrible advice. Listen to this "specific procedure for getting the call right."

Article talking about staying with the shooter ...
"Changing the call. If one official signals a successful three-point attempt and the other official is certain that the shooter was on or inside the three-point arc, there's a specific procedure for getting the call right.

The correcting official should stop the clock, signal a two-point attempt and simultaneously verbalize that the shooter's foot was on or over the three-point arc. There's no need to huddle together with your partners to confer. If you clearly saw the play, there's nothing to talk about. Getting together adds confusion. Stopping the clock and signaling immediately gets the game going quickly and smoothly.

Discuss changing successful three-point field goals in your pregame conference with your partners.

... I'm thinking you might want to discuss which of you are going to finish the game because I'm not gong to be working with you after that. If there is anything to discuss in your pregame it should be who is responsible for what portions of the three-point arc and ONLY ONE OF YOU MAKE THE CALL.

"Say partner, if you mess up a three-point attempt (and I'm gonna be watchin' you to make sure you do it correctly), I'm just gonna stop the clock, correct your mistake for you (in front of a packed gym, the coaches, players, everybody, we'll probably be on TV too), you bring the ball in and we'll get going again. I don't want to cover your butt too many times so don't let it happen very often. Hey, have a great game."

Ouch! I'm thinking "Where's my role of duct tape? You're staying in the lockeroom buddy, I mean partner."
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Old Tue Oct 12, 2004, 12:07pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by DownTownTonyBrown

Article talking about staying with the shooter ...
"Changing the call. If one official signals a successful three-point attempt and the other official is certain that the shooter was on or inside the three-point arc, there's a specific procedure for getting the call right.

The correcting official should stop the clock, signal a two-point attempt and simultaneously verbalize that the shooter's foot was on or over the three-point arc. There's no need to huddle together with your partners to confer. If you clearly saw the play, there's nothing to talk about. Getting together adds confusion. Stopping the clock and signaling immediately gets the game going quickly and smoothly.

Lah, me! Tony, before I comment, where exactly did you find this little gem?
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Old Tue Oct 12, 2004, 12:13pm
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So Tony, what would you do if you noticed the shooter's foot was on the line and your partner gave 3 points?
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Old Tue Oct 12, 2004, 12:25pm
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DownTownTonyBrown,

Well that is the approved procedure in the area I live. But you might not go an entire season using it once. It mostly happens on transition plays where the angle of the calling official might not be the best. Not sure if that is what you agree with, but this is a regular pregame issue we discuss. This is the only issue that something changed (that I can think of) without some kind of discussion.

Peace
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Old Tue Oct 12, 2004, 12:28pm
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First of all, I shouldn't be watching it. One makes the decision not two. Mick, what time is it where you're at... my watch says it is a different time here. Which one of us is correct?

Guess I would let his call go and assume I was wrong (if wasn't performing my own prescribed duties and my eyes happened to be wandering).

JR, this quote came out of the NFHS Preseason Basketball Guide 04-05.
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Old Tue Oct 12, 2004, 12:35pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by DownTownTonyBrown
First of all, I shouldn't be watching it. One makes the decision not two. Mick, what time is it where you're at... my watch says it is a different time here. Which one of us is correct?

Guess I would let his call go and assume I was wrong (if wasn't performing my own prescribed duties and my eyes happened to be wandering).

JR, this quote came out of the NFHS Preseason Basketball Guide 04-05.
I didn't ask you if you SHOULD be watching it, I asked you what you would do IF you happened to see it while referring.

Clearly, 100% certain, A1's foot is on the line. Your partner puts up both hands.

What do you do?
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Old Tue Oct 12, 2004, 12:41pm
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Actually the part I disagree with is the stopping the clock and verbalizing. I have been in a few games where it was near FT Line extended, or I was lead in fast transition and I or my partner saw foot on line and other signalled the preliminary for 3.

The one official gives a hard signal that it was two pointing toward the floor, Almost always the other official immediately recognizes the signal and will change it to match his...

I dont think this is overruling but helping out, sometimes from one angle it appears that player was behind while at another angle his foot was on the line.

Trail is not calling far basline corner and lead is not calling the tip of the arc... these plays almost always happen near FT line extended
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Old Tue Oct 12, 2004, 12:43pm
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This summer at camp we had a similar "change" situation and we were actually criticized for getting together and talking about it.
Here's the situation, I was C and a shot came off the rim. A1 has good boxout on B1 but B1 goes up and gets the ball for a tap and falls into A1 hard. I come in with a push, but didn't see the ball drop because I was watching the rebounding position. As soon as I call it my partners are asking if the bucket counts, and in a not so great moment of my officiating career I replied, "what bucket?". Anyway, my trail was a good official and when we conferred, we agreed that the tap should count because the contact occurred after the tap. Anyway, I understand about flow of the game and all, but what's wrong with making sure you get it right? To me that makes more sense as a partner than overruling him or getting overruled and having coaches and fans see an official as "wrong".
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Old Tue Oct 12, 2004, 12:45pm
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Lightbulb

Quote:
Originally posted by DownTownTonyBrown
Mick, what time is it where you're at... my watch says it is a different time here. Which one of us is correct?
DownTownTonyBrown.
Time is U.P.
mick


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Old Tue Oct 12, 2004, 12:50pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by DownTownTonyBrown
First of all, I shouldn't be watching it. One makes the decision not two. Mick, what time is it where you're at... my watch says it is a different time here. Which one of us is correct?
I disagree with you here. I know in 3 Person both the T and the C have 3 point shots in the middle of the court. It is always possible to have one official see the play clearly and another get screened. I know unless I have some real obvious evidence on a 3 point shot I have to make a decision right then and now. If my partner sees something clearly wrong with my ruling (on this call), stop the clock and change it.

Quote:
Originally posted by DownTownTonyBrown
Guess I would let his call go and assume I was wrong (if wasn't performing my own prescribed duties and my eyes happened to be wandering).

JR, this quote came out of the NFHS Preseason Basketball Guide 04-05.
In basketball especially there are duel coverage areas and calls that might have two or more officials looking at the same play and come to different conclusions. I know when I call a foul it is possible that my partner has a different opinion; we have to go with one of the decisions. This is not any different. Just on 3 point shots you are not going to stop play on regular calls. I would rather have my partner stop play and change this, then go to the tape later and find out I was wrong. It is one thing to make a foul call, but quite another to award points wrong if you ask me.

Peace
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Old Tue Oct 12, 2004, 01:00pm
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Dan's question is exactly the right thing to ask. Nobody is suggesting that you hold your partner's hand on every call. But -- especially in 2-whistle -- there are gray areas in coverage.

So. . .

If you are 100% certain that your partner missed the foot on the line, how should that be handled?

Should you ignore it? or fix it?

You should fix it. I would hope that there would be no debate about that.

So. . .

How do you fix it? Huddle up and let the calling partner correct him/herself? Or simply inform the table and keep going?

I think there are probably good points on each side of that question. Around here, we follow that Fed guideline. Tweet! "Two!" Throw-in. Pretty easy.
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Old Tue Oct 12, 2004, 01:02pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by JRutledge
In basketball especially there are duel coverage areas
Did you mean to write, "In fencing especially. . ."?
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Old Tue Oct 12, 2004, 01:07pm
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Chuck you beat me to it...

I was thinking that Aaron Burr would pop out soon!
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  #14 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 12, 2004, 01:12pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dan_ref
Quote:
Originally posted by DownTownTonyBrown
First of all, I shouldn't be watching it. One makes the decision not two. Mick, what time is it where you're at... my watch says it is a different time here. Which one of us is correct?

Guess I would let his call go and assume I was wrong (if wasn't performing my own prescribed duties and my eyes happened to be wandering).

JR, this quote came out of the NFHS Preseason Basketball Guide 04-05.
I didn't ask you if you SHOULD be watching it, I asked you what you would do IF you happened to see it while referring.

Clearly, 100% certain, A1's foot is on the line. Your partner puts up both hands.

What do you do?
Let me rearrange and see if you recognize this as an answer:

Guess (if I wasn't performing my own prescribed duties and my eyes happened to be wandering) I would let his call go and assume I was wrong.

If it was my call and my partner was mistakenly calling it a three, guess I would do something to correct him and the scorers. Not sure I would stop the clock but might emphatically show two fingers and run by the table to yell the same to them. Next break, my partner and I will have a little discussion on responsibilities.

I must assume that this really is a prescribed procedure if both you and Jeff are espousing it. Where is this 'change your partner's call procedure described/stipulated?' I've never seen or heard such a comment. I've only heard the opposite - that you never change your partner's judgement call. That if you feel strongly about it, you can present your side of the story and the calling official can PERHAPS now, make a more informed decision. Until today, I've never seen anything that says if I want to change your call, I can flatly just stop the game and change it.
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  #15 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 12, 2004, 01:27pm
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Two different things...

judgement call or definite 3 or not...it's either they are behind the line or not...it's not like a block/charge you are changing... if you see the foot on the line and your partner gave a 3 signal, you know it shouldn't be a 3, so get it right...whether you can easily say it was a two by showing the table, but then the other coach will probably stop play anyways and say "well your partner said it was a 3, so you will have to stop the clock and discuss it anyways, so just take a quick moment and blow it dead call it a two for being on the line and throw the ball back in..
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