Questioning Partner's Call

[Adam]

"Coach, you'll have to ask him what he saw next chance you get."

IOW, I absolutely would tell him I'm not going to confer with my partner.

Where were you when the call was made? Where was the ball touched in the FC?

The answers to these questions will dictate the answer to "how" to approach your partner.

[Afrosheen]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

And herein lies the problem.

If you've been officiating for any length of time at all (and I'm assuming you have - you are also an assignor), you know better. Any sport (perhaps other than football, where this gets relegated to the R). If the coach has a problem with a call, he needs to address it with the official who made the call. If the coach, as you say, asked you to confer, a good official would direct him to the other official. If your partner wants to confer, do so.

If you're going to stop down the game to discuss calls every time a coach asks you to confer with your partner on a call your partner made, you're in for a long long game (and your partner's credibility is toast).

It took less than ten seconds for me to go up to him and ask him a simple question of whether the player gained possession in the front court or the backcourt, and after he answered I left it as that (even as he answered it with disdain) and I then directed the other team to throw in the ball at halfcourt. It's the partner's response and his veiled attempt to pin me down with the rulebook that is at issue here.

Personally, there are many times where I made an incorrect "out-of-bounds" call where my partner came up to me and asked if I saw it go off of 'so-and-so.' I can point to the many times with college and pro officials conferred with one another on a call. So if you're saying that as officials we should confer only when the calling official asks to confer then I would disagree. But I would only do it at rare times during the game where my partner might be kicking the rule, still though with no intention of overruling my partner.

So I guess before going further we must ask the question of how willing you are at maintaining the integrity of the game? If you believe that each individual's primary is solely to be judged by the official responsible then I guess we'll have to disagree on principle and leave it as that which means my followup question of how to approach your partner on certain calls would be moot.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Afrosheen

Personally, there are many times where I made an incorrect "out-of-bounds" call where my partner came up to me and asked if I saw it go off of 'so-and-so.' I can point to the many times with college and pro officials conferred with one another on a call. So if you're saying that as officials we should confer only when the calling official asks to confer then I would disagree. But I would only do it at rare times during the game where my partner might be kicking the rule, still though with no intention of overruling my partner. .

Yeah but they likely do give information on what they "think." They give information on what they "know" and they have definite knowledge of what they saw. And that also comes when it is not strictly a judgment call. Judging player control sometimes is a judgment call. It would have been better if you told him what you saw instead of asking a question as you appeared to do in your OP.

Originally Posted by Afrosheen

So I guess before going further we must ask the question of how willing you are at maintaining the integrity of the game? If you believe that each individual's primary is solely to be judged by the official responsible then I guess we'll have to disagree on principle and leave it as that which means my followup question of how to approach your partner on certain calls would be moot.

This has nothing to do with the integrity of the game. We all have calls that someone might disagree with at some point in the game. That is very normal and OK. We cannot make every call perfect and certainly not perfect if you we all are not watching the same things.

Peace

[Afrosheen]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Judging player control sometimes is a judgment call. It would have been better if you told him what you saw instead of asking a question as you appeared to do in your OP.

Agreed, I will do that from now on. Thanks for the advice.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

This has nothing to do with the integrity of the game. We all have calls that someone might disagree with at some point in the game. That is very normal and OK. We cannot make every call perfect and certainly not perfect if you we all are not watching the same things.

Peace

I did not say that I was willing to "correct" my partner at every opportunity. I was speaking against the mindset that my partner believed that I'm not to question his call no matter how egregiously incorrect it may be.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Afrosheen

I did not say that I was willing to "correct" my partner at every opportunity. I was speaking against the mindset that my partner believed that I'm not to question his call no matter how egregiously incorrect it may be.

Maybe, but you asked a question. You were not giving definitive information.

At the end of the day you are a team and need to trust your partner. We already have people think we are always watching the same things. Now when a situation takes place that you did not clearly see and your partner did, do you think it would be a good idea to go to them or them to a definitive call has been made? I like the idea of getting calls right, but some take that concept too far and try to save every situation. The integrity of the game is not going to be shaped simply by one missed call.

Peace

[Afrosheen]

I agree with your perspective wholeheartedly, JRutledge. I guess the factors that were at play during the game led me to making the decision of approaching my partner with the question that I had. Even though he responded contemptuously, I did not make it an issue, and came out of it supporting his call and giving his call more credibility as he "convinced" me with my own line where the player gained possession with one hand before going into the backcourt where he caught it with two hands.

And when we came together at the quarter, I told him that I did not intend to put him on the spot and try to overrule him, I just wanted to make sure he understood the rule where the backcourt violation only applies when the player has control before going to the backcourt. I thought that by apologizing and explaining myself to him that we put this behind us, but I guess that wasn't the case with the email I got.

Now, my intention with this thread is to better handle a situation where an official kicked a call and now being so hurt that I approached him, wants to pin me down and try to get one over me even after I apologized to him for how I approached him on his call.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

.... The integrity of the game is not going to be shaped simply by one missed call.

Peace

Here we go, what Jeff said.

And as I said earlier, it would have been a time I would have told a less experienced partner to go explain (quickly) to the coach what and why the call was made.

I'm assuming this was a 2-man game. If I'm working 2-man game and I'm administering a throw-in on the end line I'm not going to have a solid look at what's going on at the division line.

[Afrosheen]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Here we go, what Jeff said.

And as I said earlier, it would have been a time I would have told a less experienced partner to go explain (quickly) to the coach what and why the call was made.

I'm assuming this was a 2-man game. If I'm working 2-man game and I'm administering a throw-in on the end line I'm not going to have a solid look at what's going on at the division line.

That "solid look" only would apply if your partner knows the rule and it's a question of where possession was gained. How would you know that your partner knew the rule when such a situation occurred? Would you know whether he called it because the ball was merely touched in the front court which led him to call a backcourt violation?

I don't like leaving the play and merely telling the coach, "hey I guess we gotta live with it, though if you want to know exactly what happened ask him two or three plays after when he's tableside," implicitly saying that I know he got screwed and I'm not willing to help him out. Especially when I seeing these coaches on a weekly basis. That's not how I respect the integrity of the game. At the very least I will make sure that the controversial call where a rule might have been kicked is given adequate attention. And if my partner is as sensitive or adamant as my last partner was, I'll just let it go and tell him like I did at the quarter that as a crew we can confer with one another on the calls we have.

But usually on fouls I just let it go and talk with my parter at the half or at the end of the game if it was really bad. On violations like out-of-bounds or backcourt violations like these that are often kicked because refs think the player can't retrieve the ball in the backcourt on an inbounds after touching in the frontcourt, I'm often wanting to make sure my partner knows the rule and hopefully correct it right then and there.

I guess I've grown in a unit where it's considered OK to have your partner come up to you on a call you made as long as that partner leaves you to make the final decision on the play.

[Adam]

Why would you assume he didn't know the rule?

[Afrosheen]

Originally Posted by Adam

Why would you assume he didn't know the rule?

Because coming out of the timeout, I was standing at the three-point line near the baseline as I gave the go ahead to my partner I saw that the offensive player was straddling the division line, who then faked the opponent to get space but then backed up. And as he was backing up he caught the pass. Apparently, he caught the pass with one hand in the frontcourt, then went into the backcourt as he brought up the other hand to catch the ball before he started dribbling. I went up to my partner to be sure that's what he saw, not one where he touched the ball in the front court then gained possession of it in the backcourt.

[Raymond]

1) Well, now you have a good pre-game topic of discussion for all the new guys your work with to make sure they know the throw-in/BC rule.

2) You used the word "apparently". Also, nobody told you to let the coach get screwed and have your partner explain the call 2-3 plays later. I specifically said to let your partner explain HIS call, and THEN move on with the game.

If it was me in your position and the coach was so inconsolable I would have said "Well Bob, he might have missed that one. We'll talk about what he saw after the game." Any response from me from that point on would have been "Let it go" or "We're moving on." I'm not letting a coach act an a$$ over a call that might have or apparently has been missed.

It's October, no one is getting screwed out of anything basketball related at this time of the year.

And we still don't know what your partner actually saw on the play; you haven't told us.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Afrosheen

Because coming out of the timeout, I was standing at the three-point line near the baseline as I gave the go ahead to my partner I saw that the offensive player was straddling the division line, who then faked the opponent to get space but then backed up. And as he was backing up he caught the pass. Apparently, he caught the pass with one hand in the frontcourt, then went into the backcourt as he brought up the other hand to catch the ball before he started dribbling. I went up to my partner to be sure that's what he saw, not one where he touched the ball in the front court then gained possession of it in the backcourt.

Where were his feet when he caught it? How could you see so clearly from the end line where his feet were? There's no way I'm doing anything in this play, to be honest, from the way you describe it.

Most likely, when the coach starts crying, I'm going to respond by just shaking my head as I go to put the ball in play. At most, he'll get a "You'll need to ask Bob when you get a chance." More likely, nothing. He doesn't get to ask for a conference on a play so obviously out of my realm just because he thinks the call was wrong.

I ask again, what made you think your partner didn't know the rule? You really haven't given that answer.

Again, I can't think of any way I would approach a partner on a violation call he made where all of the action took place in his primary coverage area.

You mentioned the need/desire to get the call right, and I can understand that, but I just don't see this play as something that needs addressed on the court. Ask him at second dead ball if you have a question about what happened. Calling 50 feet away should be reserved for making obvious calls that need to be made to "save the game", such as hard fouls and train wrecks. Trying to overturn a hair splitting violation? I wouldn't.

It does make for great post game conversation, though.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

2) You used the word "apparently". Also, nobody told you to let the coach get screwed and have your partner explain the call 2-3 plays later. I specifically said to let your partner explain HIS call, and THEN move on with the game.

I did, and I stand by it (unless this went differently than I imagine in my head). I'm not delaying the game to have a partner explain a BC call to a coach who is, essentially, just asking me to overturn it. The fact that the coach is asking for a conference at all tells me he saw something in the official's face that indicated he disagreed with his partner. That might be wrong, but in my experience, that's normally when I've seen it.

It could be that the OP is simply a known commodity to the coach, and he wanted the OP to "talk to" his partner. I had a coach ask my partner to do that once when I called a T (I was new to town) in an AAU game.

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by Afrosheen

He then said that how could I have seen it better as Lead when he was on top of it as Trail.

Why would the lead have a better look at a backcourt call? That isn't yours. If you're watching his and he is watching his, who's watching yours?

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by Afrosheen

Apparently, he caught the pass with one hand in the frontcourt, then went into the backcourt as he brought up the other hand to catch the ball before he started dribbling.

So he was in the front court with possession, and went into the backcourt? If I'm reading this right, that's a backcourt. Just asking if I'm reading this right.