Questioning Partner's Call

Originally Posted by Afrosheen

And as he was backing up he caught the pass. Apparently, he caught the pass with one hand in the frontcourt, then went into the backcourt as he brought up the other hand to catch the ball before he started dribbling. I went up to my partner to be sure that's what he saw, not one where he touched the ball in the front court then gained possession of it in the backcourt.

Originally Posted by OKREF

So he was in the front court with possession, and went into the backcourt? If I'm reading this right, that's a backcourt. Just asking if I'm reading this right.

Huh, that sounds strangely like this play...

[Afrosheen]

It seems to me that you guys are all focusing on this specific play way too much and using words and clichés to sway the argument to your own biased point of view before even considering the play. As a 10 year official, it should be expected that your peripheral vision is at use, and that just because it's your secondary it doesn't prohibit you from taking action on a particular play.

So let me be real specific in regards to the play just to entertain this discussion, which really isn't the main point of the this read. And then I'll address each of the individual points thereafter.

First off, this was an AAU/club team fall league tournament. So the games kind of mattered for these guys. And as an assignor for the region these teams pretty much know me by now. But having said that I'm an assignor doesn't mean that I know better on all plays, so I'm here to learn as well.

Secondly, it was the first play out of a timeout. As Lead, I decided to play up as this defense likes to apply pressure and my partner has a reluctance at hustling and standing strong side on the sideline wouldn't look good. So if you were to draw this up in your head I was standing a little bit lower than where a Center would usually be standing opposite the Trail. If this was a Varsity game, I would have been standing below the baseline, strong-side. But given the type of game and my partner, I decided it would be prudent to stand table-side and start off the play as a pseudo-center.

The coach was standing a few feet up along the same sideline I was, around the 28' line on the same half I was standing.

Before the play resumed the defense was already up, one matchup was below the line from where I was standing. The offensive player or really the point guard needed to gain separation from his defender so he juked towards the basket and then backed up. As he backed up the pass was made as the defender was still recovering. The point guard's feet when he touched the ball was in the front court, but he definitely did not grab the ball with two hands until he was in the backcourt. Only the coach understood this as everyone thought that since the player was in the frontcourt where he initially touched the ball that even though he was in the backcourt when he caught it, it wasn't a backcourt violation.

Now if you've watched basketball enough, the play that I saw is easy to imagine. And since this was a youth level game there wasn't much in my area to watch coming out of a timeout. The point guard tried to get position with his arm outstretched as the target, but his teammate wasn't confident in passing it to him. So the PG decides to make a juke towards the basket but then back up to create space as the defender recovers. Now the PG as he backed up got the pass with his right hand but never caught it until going into the backcourt. The way he caught it was that he was backing up but when he touched the ball he turned his back to protect the ball. So imagining all that would be a quick jab towards the defender and the basket, sidestep back and essentially face your teammate who's throwing in the ball, touch the ball with one hand, turn your back to protect the ball as you catch it.

Standing where the Center usually stands made it easy to see this as the play was pretty much within my vision. The unfortunate part was how the play ended.

The way I saw it was that the offensive player touched the ball with his right hand as he approached the division line with his left foot in the frontcourt as he stepped his right foot in the backcourt, so when he lifted his left foot it looked like it was a backcourt violation, but his right foot was there in the backcourt before he possessed it. That right foot was clear as day as it was used to turn towards the basket and towards me and the coach.

The reason why I admitted to my doubt in this thread was because I thought you all would be able to understand this situation where you're never sure of a call in the absolute sense and when it comes to a call your partner made you always give your partner the benefit of the doubt. Instead I'm feeling like you guys want me to be wrong here so you load up your statements to make appear to be so even though you making it up along the way.

So when I went up to him, I already had the two scenarios in my mind. The coach was the only other person who made it evident that he knew the rule coupled with a plain view from his position, and since this is an AAU game in an empty gym his voice carried and it was clear everyone heard him say "he didn't gain possession until he was in the backcourt." To let such a play go without addressing it would be foolish. I had to go up to my partner, especially since I'm assigning these games. And even if, and as I did, allowed my partner's call to stand, I still would have the opportunity to go up to the coach and say, as I did, that I listened to what my partner had to say and I agreed with his call. And the coach for this game was satisfied with that as he gave me a thumbs up as I hustled back down to the other end. These are not varsity coaches and they understand how officiating at the AAU level works they just don't want to a possible correctable situation to be ignored.

The coach knew it was clearly a situation where his team did not gain possession until in the backcourt and from where I was standing that looked to be true. But I have a habit of inserting doubt even when it doesn't seem to look necessary, and in this case that doubt helped me give my partner the opportunity an out as I wanted to defend him. Unfortunately, I was working with a guy who has a chip on his shoulder and finds it offensive to question his authority even by someone who is assigns him youth level games.

When I went up to my partner I asked him first if the player gained control before going into the backcourt. He said yes. I then asked followed up by asking, "so he gained possession of the ball with one hand before catching it in the backcourt?"

Now given the feedback I got from you all in this thread, I should have approached him in a different way even though wording this was difficult as I didn't want to seem like I was overruling him. Unfortunately I wasn't able to escape what I feared, and my partner's response to the second question was that I was making it awkward and I should stop questioning his call.

Disclaimer: this official has a great bball IQ and during his first year and showed tremendous upside. Unfortunately something happened to him last year where he had a couple of no-shows and as a result of it, he started having a chip on his shoulder, gained weight, showed up late (even to this game), and wasn't willing to hustle as well as he used to. So I had a sympathetic heart and wanted to see him recover from where he was, so I understand why he was feeling defensive. And I unfortunately crossed a personal line of his.




As I stated, I apologized at the end of the quarter to him for how I crossed that line of his. And he admitted that he took it a bit personally. But I did also mention the principle that as an official that I lived by which was that as a crew we are obligated to make sure we get the call right and even though I may approach my partner under rare and certain circumstances, my intention is to never overrule my partner. It seemed everything was cool at that point as we shook hands and let that be.

Unfortunately that was not the case with the email that I received from him questioning me on the basis of the rules and how I'm not supposed to confer with my partner about his call. So I backtracked from the start and shared this to you all in this thread so that I could go through it step by step and see where my particular mistake was. Again, unfortunately, we couldn't step beyond the play and discuss on principle where and when we're supposed to confer on a call as a crew.

[Afrosheen]

Originally Posted by AremRed

Huh, that sounds strangely like this play...

Yes, only that the pass was made where the referee was standing and that there was no "fumble;" he just touched the ball in the front court, but grabbed the ball with two hands in the backcourt. The body movement and everything is very similar to this play though.

edit: Just imagine it to be on the other side of the court, left foot down clearly in the front court as he touched the ball with his right hand. Right foot comes down on the line as he shifts his left foot back behind the division line, pivoting with his right foot to protect the ball with his body, then pivoting towards the tableside in order to face the basket and make a move.

[Afrosheen]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

1) Well, now you have a good pre-game topic of discussion for all the new guys your work with to make sure they know the throw-in/BC rule.

When your partner is late and you gotta spend the first ten minutes checking pictures of the teams there's no time to go through particular violations. Besides, why would you think this would be acceptable to such a person when he's not willing to consider your points during the game? Going over the rules as a "pre-game" seems just as condescending.

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

2) You used the word "apparently". Also, nobody told you to let the coach get screwed and have your partner explain the call 2-3 plays later. I specifically said to let your partner explain HIS call, and THEN move on with the game.

The word was used to describe what my partner saw, and what my partner saw was what I considered to be actual as I gave him the benefit of the doubt.

The concern that I had going forward from this play was not giving the coach the opportunity to possibly correct the call by conferring with my partner.

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

If it was me in your position and the coach was so inconsolable I would have said "Well Bob, he might have missed that one. We'll talk about what he saw after the game." Any response from me from that point on would have been "Let it go" or "We're moving on." I'm not letting a coach act an a$$ over a call that might have or apparently has been missed.

He wasn't "inconsolable." In fact he was quite understanding, but his immediate reaction was quite heated. He responded by saying: "That's not a backcourt violation; he didn't gain possession until he was in the backcourt; you gotta change that call ref." I responded to him by saying I'll ask what my partner saw, which I did, even though I insisted too much.

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

It's October, no one is getting screwed out of anything basketball related at this time of the year.

Unfortunately, you don't know how AAU works. Teams pay money to play in these tournaments, so yes having a bad crew does leave a feeling of being screwed. But this was one call and I don't believe that this particular call screwed them all that much. And giving more attention to the call was sufficient for the coach despite the fact that it went against him in the end.

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

And we still don't know what your partner actually saw on the play; you haven't told us.

Because I asked him with a yes or no question of whether the player controlled the ball in the frontcourt before going into the backcourt. He said yes both times I asked.

[reffish]

You did all this over a backcourt call? And during an AAU game? I am sure you realize the number of times a coach will question a call, knowing or not knowing a rule? I have to admit that if you did that in a game with me, I would probably shake your hand as well during the game and probably never want to work with you again. I assume after the player caught the ball and after the coach said what he said, you blew your whistle and ran toward your partner and did your questioning, is that right? If so, then yes, that is awkward, especially over a backcourt call. And then you got the thumbs up sign from the coach. Are you sure you are officiating to the game as you state and not to the coaches pleasure? Your determination to get every call right can hamstring the crew when you become over officious and start to stop play on judgmental calls such as this backcourt call. Afrosheen, this past season I did this very thing in a game and and my take away was I did not trust my partners and was swayed by the coaches reaction. Bad move! I trust my partners, regardless of their experience, 1st year to 20 year vet, trust your partners. That is my take away. I want to commend your partner for getting into the mechanics book and rule book, he did some homework before writing that email. That took guts, especially sending it to his assignor, kudos to him. Okay, that is my $0.02. Good night

[Afrosheen]

Originally Posted by Adam

Where were his feet when he caught it? How could you see so clearly from the end line where his feet were? There's no way I'm doing anything in this play, to be honest, from the way you describe it.

Left foot in the frontcourt, right foot in the backcourt. I stood a couple steps below where the Center would stand. That's your approach, to which I disagree as I believe the integrity of the game requires it.

Originally Posted by Adam

Most likely, when the coach starts crying, I'm going to respond by just shaking my head as I go to put the ball in play. At most, he'll get a "You'll need to ask Bob when you get a chance." More likely, nothing. He doesn't get to ask for a conference on a play so obviously out of my realm just because he thinks the call was wrong.

"Out of your realm" isn't the way the rulebook describes your secondary. It shouldn't be out of your realm. If a felony occurred in your secondary, and your partner did not call it, you better pick it up as that would be a travesty as to have two officials not call something something egregious would be extremely embarrassing. And when it comes to approaching your partner, I've been taught approach your partner when it's only absolutely necessary like when you got info that he may not have considered, which this play fits the bill.

Originally Posted by Adam

I ask again, what made you think your partner didn't know the rule? You really haven't given that answer.

He's an inexperienced official, with a troubled past who at times kicks calls during the game and likes to call three seconds in the key a lot, which I told him that could be more of a preventable call if he's willing to communicate to players. I expect the officials who are working varsity games to know the rules. When I'm working AAU games, I'm expecting the opposite, especially when I'm working with 2 or 3 year officials.

Originally Posted by Adam

Again, I can't think of any way I would approach a partner on a violation call he made where all of the action took place in his primary coverage area.

So you don't call anything ever in your secondary? Well that's unfortunate, and I guess if I was your partner, I would have be extremely concerned not to miss anything in my primary as my partner isn't going to be willing to pick up anything that I might miss.

Originally Posted by Adam

You mentioned the need/desire to get the call right, and I can understand that, but I just don't see this play as something that needs addressed on the court. Ask him at second dead ball if you have a question about what happened. Calling 50 feet away should be reserved for making obvious calls that need to be made to "save the game", such as hard fouls and train wrecks. Trying to overturn a hair splitting violation? I wouldn't.

It does make for great post game conversation, though.

Well I guess Tom Izzo in the play recorded above would hope that you'd not ref his game as he would have not been fortunate enough to have an official confer with his partner on a missed call in order to get it right.

I had a situation like yours, and wrote about it here if you want to read it. These situations are almost exactly the same, in that we were both trying to bring information to our partner to make the right (in our eyes) call.

In my thread, half the forum members thought my partner was too uptight about hearing my opinion on the play, and the other half thought I should have left the decision in his hands. It seems to me like the same thing has happened in this thread.

However, you are the assignor. You are in charge of setting expectations for those who work under you. As far as dealing with this guy: be direct. Tell him that the officiating crew is a team, and their goal is to get plays right. If your partner has information he thinks can help, he should present it. It is up to the calling official to decide whether to take it or not. The key is being humble enough to listen to his information, opinion, and/or criticism.

[Afrosheen]

Originally Posted by reffish

You did all this over a backcourt call? And during an AAU game? I am sure you realize the number of times a coach will question a call, knowing or not knowing a rule? I have to admit that if you did that in a game with me, I would probably shake your hand as well during the game and probably never want to work with you again. I assume after the player caught the ball and after the coach said what he said, you blew your whistle and ran toward your partner and did your questioning, is that right? If so, then yes, that is awkward, especially over a backcourt call. And then you got the thumbs up sign from the coach. Are you sure you are officiating to the game as you state and not to the coaches pleasure? Your determination to get every call right can hamstring the crew when you become over officious and start to stop play on judgmental calls such as this backcourt call. Afrosheen, this past season I did this very thing in a game and and my take away was I did not trust my partners and was swayed by the coaches reaction. Bad move! I trust my partners, regardless of their experience, 1st year to 20 year vet, trust your partners. That is my take away. I want to commend your partner for getting into the mechanics book and rule book, he did some homework before writing that email. That took guts, especially sending it to his assignor, kudos to him. Okay, that is my $0.02. Good night

A hit and run post. Nothing more need be said about this one.

[reffish]

I actually wanted a reply, but need to go to bed is all. In fairness, I did not address your original question on dealing with the email. It may have been said already, but email the young official and remind him that you were trying to provide additional information on the play that you believed was ruled incorrectly. Since you are the assignor, leave it at that and assign him or don't. Oh, one more thing I noticed you posted that as an experienced official you may come across as condescending to newer officials; maybe work on becoming less of that and more supportive and come in on plays where you have definitive knowledge, like OOB plays or incorrect shooter or fouler, and not on plays where you start describing the play using words like "I thought.." or "I believe.." And again, trust your partners, it will go along way.

[Afrosheen]

Originally Posted by AremRed

I had a situation like yours, and wrote about it here if you want to read it. These situations are almost exactly the same, in that we were both trying to bring information to our partner to make the right (in our eyes) call.

In my thread, half the forum members thought my partner was too uptight about hearing my opinion on the play, and the other half thought I should have left the decision in his hands. It seems to me like the same thing has happened in this thread.

However, you are the assignor. You are in charge of setting expectations for those who work under you. As far as dealing with this guy: be direct. Tell him that the officiating crew is a team, and their goal is to get plays right. If your partner has information he thinks can help, he should present it. It is up to the calling official to decide whether to take it or not. The key is being humble enough to listen to his information, opinion, and/or criticism.

Thank you, I sincerely appreciate your posts in this thread as you kept your posts grounded and focused more on the approach rather than the nitty gritty stuff that will forever remain ambiguous and could be argued over for days.

I responded to the officials emails in a stern sense as I did apologize to him during the game so having to deal with an official attempting to win one over me wasn't something that I enjoyed addressing as he has a lot to work on as it is.

I distinguished his concern from the rulebook in that on the personal side that I was mistaken to have approached him as I know now that he's sensitive. And I told him the next time we work together that I'll leave him on his own to live and die on his own calls at the slight expense of the integrity of the game.

But on the other hand I told him that I did not appreciate how he tried to veil an attempt to prove my reasoning to be wrong in such a disingenuous manner especially after I first asked him to specify his question in his initial email. I suggested to him that I'll be willing to consider what he has to say if he first shows that he's willing to give a proper reading of the rulebook and presents himself in a more genuine manner. And I left it as that.

[Afrosheen]

Originally Posted by reffish

I actually wanted a reply, but need to go to bed is all. In fairness, I did not address your original question on dealing with the email. It may have been said already, but email the young official and remind him that you were trying to provide additional information on the play that you believed was ruled incorrectly. Since you are the assignor, leave it at that and assign him or don't. Oh, one more thing I noticed you posted that as an experienced official you may come across as condescending to newer officials; maybe work on becoming less of that and more supportive and come in on plays where you have definitive knowledge, like OOB plays or incorrect shooter or fouler, and not on plays where you start describing the play using words like "I thought.." or "I believe.." And again, trust your partners, it will go along way.

I understand where you're coming from. But my concern was to be principled but also fair. So it's easy to say be less condescending, but in real terms how can I be less condescending? So the only way I know is present myself honestly and allow to be criticized and learn from the feedback that I receive.

As far as trusting partners… I don't believe trust should trump the integrity of the game. As I said to another poster here, I would hope that my partner doesn't only give me his trust as I would be concerned with making sure to get all the plays right in my primary especially in a two-person game. So when a situation like this arises in a game, I would hope that my partner has the balls to present me with something that I may not have considered before so that we'll look like a strong crew.

I even go as far as making my partner confer to me, when I blatantly kick a call even though he doesn't know, just to make it look like he gave me new information that I only got by myself after I made the call. So this idea that conferring is a signal of embarrassment needs to challenged at the very least.

[bob jenkins]

Several times you mentioned that you were the assigner -- that doesn't give you any extra rights / responsibilities during the game to go to your partner. I wonder if that "I'm the assigner" attitude doesn't carry over into other interactions with this official.

When you went to him, he said that control was gained in the FC. That can be done with one hand. No need to question him further.

You came here asking for advice, and you got it (some of which agreed with you and some of which didn't). Now you are not seeming to take it, and are just defending your position. It's like going to a camp -- take what works for you and ignore the rest.

The other official was wrong in how he communicated back to you later. You were wrong in how you handled it initially. Both imo, of course.

[MD Longhorn]

I don't intend offense by this, but suspect you're going to take it anyway.

You posted a situation and asked for advice. You got it.
You didn't like that advice and argued with it.
You added information to the play to try to support your opinion that you didn't need the advice. That added information made it clearer to most of us here that you really really do need this advice.
You repeatedly didn't like the advice and argued with it.

Seriously - if you want advice, learn to accept advice.

[reffish]

Originally Posted by Afrosheen

I understand where you're coming from. But my concern was to be principled but also fair. So it's easy to say be less condescending, but in real terms how can I be less condescending? So the only way I know is present myself honestly and allow to be criticized and learn from the feedback that I receive.

As far as trusting partners… I don't believe trust should trump the integrity of the game. As I said to another poster here, I would hope that my partner doesn't only give me his trust as I would be concerned with making sure to get all the plays right in my primary especially in a two-person game. So when a situation like this arises in a game, I would hope that my partner has the balls to present me with something that I may not have considered before so that we'll look like a strong crew.

I even go as far as making my partner confer to me, when I blatantly kick a call even though he doesn't know, just to make it look like he gave me new information that I only got by myself after I made the call. So this idea that conferring is a signal of embarrassment needs to challenged at the very least.

The integrity of the game...you seem more concerned with making sure your partners know that you will be there to help on any and all calls that are ruled incorrect and if you come in to "help," regardless if it is asked or not, it is expected and should be welcomed by your partner, for the integrity of the game. And this business of you going as far as making your partners confer with you after you kick a call and you know that and you want it to look like he gives you new information, for the integrity of the game. I understand that you want to get the calls right, who doesn't in this forum. Your way of getting this done is coming off as condescending and self righteous, like you are the only one on the court that has all the right information, right philosophy (have pure integrity of the game), and ability to get all the calls right. You can present yourself honestly without being condescending: when you come in to help on calls, be right (avoid using believe, think, thought, maybe) and provide the information, don't ask questions (that only creates confusion on their part). provide information and the correct ruling (by rule...).

AAU ball is a great training center for young officials, the games are rather meaningless (I know teams pay a lot to play, but still, they are meaningless in the grand scheme of basketball) and sometimes it is okay for young officials to get plays incorrect, that is how we learn, we learn from our mistakes and if we have a partner that is always coming in on plays to correct them, they lose confidence and that is not good. I guess I am trying to say, don't be a helicopter partner/assignor/official.

[MD Longhorn]

To reffish's post, I would add that continued treatment of your fellow officials in the manner you seem to think is completely appropriate (even in the face of almost everyone else here, many of whom have FAR more experience than you, telling you repeatedly that you're wrong) is most likely going to generate a bunch of gunshy officials afraid to make any calls at all for fear of you rushing in to correct them. Not healthy.