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  #31 (permalink)  
Old Mon Aug 12, 2013, 11:34pm
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Stop Right There, I Gotta Know Right Now, Before We Go Any Further (Meatloaf) ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by potato View Post
It's very possible to take 4-5 very quick steps jab steps left right left right while ball is on hand without palming, and still able to grab hold of the ball ...
Stop right there. "Hold"? The dribble has now ended and the player is limited in regard to what he can, or can't, do with his pivot foot, according to the traveling rules.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Aug 13, 2013 at 01:04am.
  #32 (permalink)  
Old Mon Aug 12, 2013, 11:45pm
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Throw Out The Baby WithThe Bathwater ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by potato View Post
Without palming.
While palming, or carrying, is a legitimate violation in basketball, in reality it's actually either a travel violation, or an illegal (double) dribble violation, depending on whether, or not, the pivot foot is moving at the time. Officials don't really need the palming, or carrying, rule. Deleting palming, or carrying, from the rulebook would have absolutely no effect on the game of basketball because the officials would call either traveling, or illegal (double) dribble, when such a violation occurred. In fact, you can probably throw away the phrase double dribble, because it's actually an illegal dribble violation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Palming or carrying is when the ball comes to rest in the player's hand, and the player either travels with the ball, or dribbles a second time.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Aug 13, 2013 at 01:48am.
  #33 (permalink)  
Old Mon Aug 12, 2013, 11:52pm
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Well, Technically, An Eight Minute Time Limit, But ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by potato View Post
4-5 very quick steps jab steps left right left right (for a normal person within 2 seconds) ...
Stop right there. You have already been advised to stay away from counting steps in regard to traveling (always listen to bob), and, rather, stick to identifying, and knowing the limitations on a player's pivot foot, Now I'm going to advise you to completely disregard any time limits in regard to the traveling rule.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Aug 13, 2013 at 12:06am.
  #34 (permalink)  
Old Mon Aug 12, 2013, 11:59pm
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If He Lifts That Pivot Foot, He Can Only Shoot, Or Pass ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by potato View Post
It's legal to continue with a pivot non-pivot run all the while with the ball on his hand ...
The ball is "on" his hand? Sounds to me like he's holding the ball with that one hand. Yes it's legal for him to continue doing something, but he's limited to what he can do because he has now ended his dribble and has only a few legal options, one of them not being to continue his dribble, because that would be illegal, i.e., traveling, or travelling for our British friends.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Aug 13, 2013 at 01:49am.
  #35 (permalink)  
Old Tue Aug 13, 2013, 12:05am
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Sammy, Give Me A Little Traveling Music (Jackie Gleason) ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by potato View Post
It would look like someone running all the way from 3/4 court to under the basket with his hand on the ball.
Hand on the ball? At some point, early on in this move, he's going to travel as he moves his pivot foot while holding the ball.
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old Tue Aug 13, 2013, 12:20am
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Words Get In The Way (Gloria Estefan) ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by potato View Post
Have the ball stay on my hand for 2 seconds, all it takes is a little bit of lateral movement, and soft hands to make it "stick" with the ball, you can keep it longer on the hand if you run faster to create more lateral force on the ball and it won't be palming or carry.
"Stay on my hand"? That's holding the ball, dribble has ended, now you have limitations in regard to what you can, and cannot, legally do.

"Lateral movement"? Once that hand gets to the point where it's perpendicular to the floor, officials will start their decision making process in regard to whether, or not, you are holding the ball. Most will probably decide that you are holding the ball, the dribble has ended, now you have limitations in regard to what you can, and cannot, legally do.

"Stick"? That's holding the ball, dribble has ended, now you have limitations in regard to what you can, and cannot, legally do.

"On the hand"? That's holding the ball, dribble has ended, now you have limitations in regard to what you can, and cannot, legally do.

"It won't be palming or carry"? Yes it will be. Call it what you like, palming, carry, or travel, but it's illegal. See post #32 above.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Aug 13, 2013 at 02:45am.
  #37 (permalink)  
Old Tue Aug 13, 2013, 12:33am
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Stop Counting Steps ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by potato View Post
They usually run 3-4 steps with the hand in contact with the ball ... their hand can stay in contact with the ball longer.
"3-4 steps"? Stop counting steps. Counting steps has nothing to do with traveling, it's all about identifying a pivot foot and knowing the limitations on the player's pivot foot once that player holds the ball (always listen to bob).

"Hand can stay in contact with the ball". "Stay"? If the hand is staying in contact with the ball, then the player is probably holding the ball, the dribble has ended, now you have limitations in regard to what you can, and cannot, legally do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by potato View Post
I'm guessing traveling is one of those more difficult to make type of judgment calls.
Traveling is the toughest call for me to make in a game. Not block/charge. Not rebounding fouls. Not fouls committed against players in the act of shooting. Not intentional fouls. Thirty-two years working games, a ton of experience, and I still have one, or two, tough traveling calls every week during the season.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Aug 13, 2013 at 05:53am.
  #38 (permalink)  
Old Tue Aug 13, 2013, 09:53am
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I used 3-4 steps before he held the ball and used the term pivot non pivot run after he grabbed the ball, i guess i should have used 3-4 alternative foot steps instead because i already tried my best to explain "left/right/left/right step", i have used the pivot non pivot foot run to describe the movement after the player held the ball. I can't be using pivot non pivot foot to illustrate the feet movement before the ball rested on the hand.

I mentioned ball on hand doesn't mean he's holding the ball from the bottom because i mentioned the player is not palming/holding/grabbing the ball, but merely ball is in contact with the hand and i'm not sure why a normal player is not capable of having the ball in contact with the hand for 2 seconds during a normal bounce without needing to palm/hold the ball and i'm not sure why a normal person is not able to move his left foot -> right foot -> left foot -> right foot quick enough to complete the movement within 1-2 seconds, i'm sure even a huge guy can tip toe fast enough.

Bounces ball on floor once -> Hand comes in contact with ball in legal dribbling position guiding the bouncing ball from waist up to shoulder or higher WHILE: "moving his left foot -> moving his right foot -> moving his left foot" -> grabs the ball with both hands to end his dribble & establish a pivot right foot -> moves his left non pivot foot and jumps off that non pivot foot.

above is my best effort in narrating the scenario without using the word step(s).


you guys are like lawyers working on each and every single word and different people having different interpretations on the sentences i'm guessing the only clear cut way to ask a question is probably coming up with a video which i failed to google one.





Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
"3-4 steps"? Stop counting steps. Counting steps has nothing to do with traveling, it's all about identifying a pivot foot and knowing the limitations on the player's pivot foot once that player holds the ball (always listen to bob).

"Hand can stay in contact with the ball". "Stay"? If the hand is staying in contact with the ball, then the player is probably holding the ball, the dribble has ended, now you have limitations in regard to what you can, and cannot, legally do.
  #39 (permalink)  
Old Tue Aug 13, 2013, 10:04am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by potato View Post

you guys are like lawyers working on each and every single word and different people having different interpretations on the sentences i'm guessing the only clear cut way to ask a question is probably coming up with a video which i failed to google one.
Well it matters what the language says in this very specific area for one. You cannot talk about steps when steps is no where in the rule or explanation of what is a violation or allowed by a player. The rule is rather simple for the most part but people like you make it more complicated by taking myths and trying to apply to what is legal or not. Even if you had video there is going to be some dispute on some plays as to when a player has established a pivot foot by stopping their dribble or when they catch the ball. Just do some research and you will see many of us debating this on a video.

The problem is you could understand by just reading the actual rule, instead of trying to find some vast paper to understand the rule. Actually it seems like you are confusing yourself more than anything.

Peace
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old Tue Aug 13, 2013, 10:39am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by potato View Post
grabs the ball with both hands to end his dribble
That's all you need to know / determine. If the dribble hasn't ended until this point, then nothing (relevant to this play) that happened before matters.
  #41 (permalink)  
Old Tue Aug 13, 2013, 11:52am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by potato View Post
...you guys are like lawyers working on each and every single word and different people having different interpretations on the sentences i'm guessing the only clear cut way to ask a question is probably coming up with a video which i failed to google one.
The best thing for you to do is actually put a whistle in your mouth and start officiating some basketball. Then you will see all these hypotheticals are meaningless to us. You will learn about something called "judgment".

But you are perfect foil for BillyMac. He will definitely keep your threads going.
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old Tue Aug 13, 2013, 01:03pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by potato View Post
I used 3-4 steps before he held the ball and used the term pivot non pivot run after he grabbed the ball, i guess i should have used 3-4 alternative foot steps instead because i already tried my best to explain "left/right/left/right step", i have used the pivot non pivot foot run to describe the movement after the player held the ball. I can't be using pivot non pivot foot to illustrate the feet movement before the ball rested on the hand.

I mentioned ball on hand doesn't mean he's holding the ball from the bottom because i mentioned the player is not palming/holding/grabbing the ball, but merely ball is in contact with the hand and i'm not sure why a normal player is not capable of having the ball in contact with the hand for 2 seconds during a normal bounce without needing to palm/hold the ball and i'm not sure why a normal person is not able to move his left foot -> right foot -> left foot -> right foot quick enough to complete the movement within 1-2 seconds, i'm sure even a huge guy can tip toe fast enough.

Bounces ball on floor once -> Hand comes in contact with ball in legal dribbling position guiding the bouncing ball from waist up to shoulder or higher WHILE: "moving his left foot -> moving his right foot -> moving his left foot" -> grabs the ball with both hands to end his dribble & establish a pivot right foot -> moves his left non pivot foot and jumps off that non pivot foot.

above is my best effort in narrating the scenario without using the word step(s).
....
If the official judges that the player is holding the ball it is a travel or illegal dribble. If the official judges that the player is not holding the ball it is not a travel.

Why is that so difficult for you to accept?
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old Tue Aug 13, 2013, 04:12pm
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Step On It ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
Stop with the "steps" thinking. It's not part of the rule. A player is either holding the ball or dribbling the ball. If he's dribbling, then there are no restrictions on the movement of the feet. If he's holding the ball, then the pivot foot movement is restricted. Deciding when a player goes from dribbling to holding is judgment, and the judgment is not based on the number of steps.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
You cannot talk about steps when steps is no where in the rule or explanation of what is a violation or allowed by a player.
Listen to bob, and to JRutledge. It's not about counting steps. It's never about counting steps. Never has been about counting steps. Never will be about counting steps. It's about the pivot foot, and only about the pivot foot. Period. Stop talking about counting steps.

To put it another way, in regard to traveling, never use the word, "step(s)", as a noun, i.e., "The player takes two steps", rather, only use the word, "step(s)", as a verb, i.e., "The player's right foot is his pivot foot, and he steps with his left foot".
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old Tue Aug 13, 2013, 04:30pm
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We'll Be Taking Depositions Early Next Week ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef View Post
You are perfect foil for BillyMac. He will definitely keep your thread going.
Quote:
Originally Posted by potato View Post
You guys are like lawyers working on each and every single word.
BadNewsRef, Esquire, is correct. No way will I let potato make a common, ordinary, garden variety, travel violation call be more difficult than it actually is. I normally like a challenge, but this isn't really that challenging, it just takes some patience, and perseverance. Hey. I dealt with 125 middle school students every day for over thirty years. They would try to grind me down every single day, so I was just as stubborn as they were. This is a piece of cake. Stand back and watch me do do that voodoo that I do so well. I'm what you call an expert at stuff like this.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Aug 13, 2013 at 05:21pm.
  #45 (permalink)  
Old Tue Aug 13, 2013, 04:40pm
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The Rain In Spain Stays Mainly In The Plain, By George, She's Got It ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by potato View Post
I can't be using pivot non pivot foot to illustrate the feet movement before the ball rested on the hand.
Like a ray of sunshine coming through the clouds, potato is 100% correct. There is no pivot foot before the player holds the ball.

potato: Please note two keys on your keyboard, one on the lower right, and one on the lower left, both with the word, "Shift", with an arrow pointing up. Hold either of them down as you press other letter keys, and see what happens. It's amazing.
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