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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Sun Aug 11, 2013, 08:19pm
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Something has to be getting lost in translation here....it's not really as hard as you're making it out to be.

It does not matter what the rule set it. A pivot foot can not be established unless you're holding the ball. Depending on when you end the dribble/gather the ball and the subsequent actions afterward will determine which foot is the pivot foot or if the player even has a pivot foot. But fundamentally, you can not establish a pivot foot until you're holding the ball.

As to your scenario, if a player isn't holding the ball, or the ball doesn't come to rest in the player's hand (aka the player doesn't palm the ball), then the player can take as many steps has he wants.

And no, a player is called for travelling for moving their pivot foot in excess of certain limits...not because he took too many steps (unless you're working in the NBA and even with that, that's still moving the pivot foot in excess of what is allowed). It's not as you describe because theoretically, a player could take as many steps as they want as long as they aren't' holding the ball or commit a dribbling violation.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Sun Aug 11, 2013, 08:44pm
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So it is allowed for a player to dribble just once, after the ball bounces, have his hand in contact with the ball for control, but not gathering/palming/holding, run as many steps as fast as he can, then Without re-bouncing the ball on the floor again for another dribble, straight away gather/hold the ball to establish a pivot foot and take another step on his non pivot foot and take off yes?

So if the player is fast enough he can do jab steps left right left right to confuse the defender with his hand in control of the ball to throw off the defender and immediately holds the ball for another 1-2 step without even doing another dribble. Wish there's a video showing this scenario to make it easier to understand. But in short the player can just run 5-6 steps straight to the basket from far out the 3point line without having to dribble after his 1st bounce from way outside the 3 point line. Something like American Football but with one hand and not grabbing the ball.






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Originally Posted by APG View Post
Something has to be getting lost in translation here....it's not really as hard as you're making it out to be.
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Old Sun Aug 11, 2013, 08:53pm
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If a player is not holding the ball, and doesn't commit any dribbling violations in the process, he can take as many steps as he wants.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Sun Aug 11, 2013, 09:06pm
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and straight away hold the ball to do a pivot/non-pivot step without another dribble? so technically a 5-6 steps to the basket without a dribble is allowed.

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If a player is not holding the ball, and doesn't commit any dribbling violations in the process, he can take as many steps as he wants.
  #20 (permalink)  
Old Sun Aug 11, 2013, 09:10pm
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Originally Posted by potato View Post
and straight away hold the ball to do a pivot/non-pivot step without another dribble? so technically a 5-6 steps to the basket without a dribble is allowed.
If he takes that many steps with his hand on the ball, the odds are good that I'm going to think he was holding the ball with one hand, but yes, it's possible in theory.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Sun Aug 11, 2013, 09:24pm
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Originally Posted by potato View Post
and straight away hold the ball to do a pivot/non-pivot step without another dribble? so technically a 5-6 steps to the basket without a dribble is allowed.
I have no idea what you're trying to say here, but it doesn't matter. My original statement still stands... if a player isn't holding the ball, and doesn't commit any dribbling violations, then a player could in theory take as many steps as he wanted.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Sun Aug 11, 2013, 09:38pm
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You can't travel while dribbling the ball.

If you lift your pivot foot before release the dribble, you have traveled.

If you end your dribble, pick your pivot foot up and put it back down while still holding the ball, you have traveled.

And I'm with the others...I have no idea why you're having such trouble comprehending this.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Mon Aug 12, 2013, 06:14am
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Does This Help ???

While dribbling, a player can slam the ball down onto the court with such force such that it bounces twenty-five feet into the air, and then take fifteen steps while the ball is in the air, and not be called for traveling. He can still continue to dribble once the ball comes back down and not be called for an illegal dribble.

Let's get some input from the Mythbusters:



The traveling rule is one of the most misunderstood rules in basketball. To start a dribble, the ball must be released before the pivot foot is lifted. On a pass or a shot, the pivot foot may be lifted, but may not return to the floor before the ball is released. A player may slide on the floor while trying to secure a loose ball until that player’s momentum stops. At that point that player cannot attempt to get up or rollover. A player securing a ball while on the floor cannot attempt to stand up unless that player starts a dribble. A player in this situation may also pass, shoot, or request a timeout. If the player is flat on his or her back, that player may sit up without violating.

A player must be holding the ball (with one very rare exception) in order to travel. A player can't travel while dribbling, while tapping the ball, while fumbling it, or while trying to recover a loose ball. During a fumble the player is not in control of the ball, and therefore, cannot be called for a traveling violation. A fumble is the accidental loss of player control when the ball is unintentionally dropped or slips from a player’s grasp. After a player has ended a dribble and fumbled the ball, that player may recover the ball without violating. Any steps taken during the recovery of a fumble are not traveling, regardless of how far the ball goes and the amount of advantage that is gained. It is always legal to recover a fumble, even at the end of a dribble, however that player cannot begin a new dribble, which would be an illegal dribble violation. A player who fumbles the ball when receiving a pass may legally start a dribble.

The shooter can retrieve his or her own airball, if the referee considers it to be a shot attempt. The release ends team control. It is not a violation for that player to start another dribble at that point. When an airborne player keeps control of an attempted shot that is blocked and is unable to release the ball and returns to the floor with it, that player has not traveled; it is a held ball. If, in this situation, the shooter loses control of the ball because of the block, then this is simply a blocked shot and play continues. If, in this situation, the defender simply touches the ball, and the airborne shooter returns to the floor holding the ball, it’s a traveling violation. When an airborne player tries for goal, sees that the try will be blocked, purposely drops the ball, and picks up the ball after it hits the floor, that player has traveled by starting a dribble with the pivot foot off the floor.

Palming or carrying is when the ball comes to rest in the player's hand, and the player either travels with the ball, or dribbles a second time. There is no restriction as to how high a player may bounce the ball, provided the ball does not come to rest in a player’s hand. Steps taken during a dribble are not traveling, including several that are sometimes taken when a high dribble takes place. It is not possible for a player to travel during a dribble.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Mon Aug 12, 2013 at 06:22pm.
  #24 (permalink)  
Old Mon Aug 12, 2013, 08:04am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by potato View Post
and straight away hold the ball to do a pivot/non-pivot step without another dribble? so technically a 5-6 steps to the basket without a dribble is allowed.
Stop with the "steps" thinking. It's not part of the rule.

A player is either holding the ball or dribbling the ball. If he's dribbling, then there are no restrictions on the movement of the feet. if he's holding the ball, then the pivot foot movement is restricted.

Deciding when a player goes from dribbling to holding is judgment, and the judgment is not based on the number of steps.
  #25 (permalink)  
Old Mon Aug 12, 2013, 09:47pm
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It's not about how high, but i'm referring to the fact that the player's hand is in contact with the ball while running so he has total control over the ball, Adam got the idea what i'm trying to say, but Adam it's very possible to take 4-5 very quick steps jab steps left right left right (for a normal person within 2 seconds) while ball is on hand without palming, and still able to grab hold of the ball and do a pivot non-pivot run.

i couldn't find a video that any players actually did this, the closest was the Michael Jordan travel but he got called for palming before he had the chance to show it's legal to continue with a pivot non-pivot run all the while with the ball on his hand.

I'm sure if someone did this infront of officials chances are they going to call it a travel because it'd look so extremely awkward and since it seems nobody's though about this move or done it before. It would look like someone running all the way from 3/4 court to under the basket with his hand on the ball.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_LktMbXNPQ

An easy way to picture it is something like this move by MJ, but let's assume: "MJ wasn't palming and he didn't do the last bounce on the ball before the layup" and instead held the ball to end the so called dribble and took a pivot/non-pivot run to finish the play, all the while his hand on the ball.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
While dribbling, a player can slam the ball down onto the court with such force such that it bounces twenty-five feet into the air, and then take fifteen steps while the ball is in the air, and not be called for traveling. He can still continue to dribble once the ball comes back down and not be called for an illegal dribble.

Last edited by potato; Mon Aug 12, 2013 at 10:07pm.
  #26 (permalink)  
Old Mon Aug 12, 2013, 09:56pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by potato View Post
i'm referring to the fact that the player's hand is in contact with the ball while running so he has total control over the ball,
The hand is in contact with the ball for an extended period of time. He has "total control" of the ball. This, for me, pretty much defines the ball coming to rest, ending the dribble.

Quote:
it's very possible to take 4-5 very quick steps jab steps left right left right (for a normal person within 2 seconds) while ball is on hand without palming,
I think not.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Mon Aug 12, 2013, 09:59pm
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I have small hands so i cannot palm the ball with 1 hand, i can dribble light and have the ball stay on my hand for 2 seconds, all it takes is a little bit of lateral movement, and soft hands to make it "stick" with the ball, you can keep it longer on the hand if you run faster to create more lateral force on the ball and it won't be palming or carry (however officials will have their own view).

Or will you just call it palming because it looks out of conventional plays and totally unfair?

I know american footballers like to run left/right/left/right before going for the breakthrough run, basketball would look something like that with this move.



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Originally Posted by Adam View Post
If he takes that many steps with his hand on the ball, the odds are good that I'm going to think he was holding the ball with one hand, but yes, it's possible in theory.
  #28 (permalink)  
Old Mon Aug 12, 2013, 10:04pm
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1.ball in contact with hand for extended period of time: about 1-2 seconds, ,you can easily see many dribblers hand in contact with the ball for 3-4 steps when they dribble from back to frontcourt, but they usually continue to dribble so it doesn't look awkward. I shouldn't have used "Total control", but since the ball is in contact with the hand he has quite abit of control.

2.get off your chair and do a quick left right left right baby steps with your feet, it's very possible for normal person. i don't mean full length steps that covers maximum range, but baby steps to make it like you are going left/right.



Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref View Post
The hand is in contact with the ball for an extended period of time. He has "total control" of the ball. This, for me, pretty much defines the ball coming to rest, ending the dribble.



I think not.
  #29 (permalink)  
Old Mon Aug 12, 2013, 10:04pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by potato View Post
I have small hands so i cannot palm the ball with 1 hand, i can dribble light and have the ball stay on my hand for 2 seconds,
The dictionary definition of "come to rest" is to "slow down and stop."


If the ball is in your hand for two seconds, it has stopped there. period
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old Mon Aug 12, 2013, 10:20pm
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So it doesn't matter if the ball is still spinning on your hand due to the bounce from the dribble?

I see many point guards esp the tall ones like to do on the moon slow-mo runs when they bring the ball from the back court to the front, they usually run 3-4 steps with the hand in contact with the ball, because they bounce high & soft so their hand can stay in contact with the ball longer. But nobody gets called for travel due to this.

I guess it will end up with judgment call. And since you believe no player has the ability to move their feet so quick you are going to judge the ball came to rest on the hand.

I'm guessing traveling is one of those more difficult to make type of judgment calls.

They should just modify the rules & explicitly state something like the dribble has considered to have ended the moment the hand comes in contact with the ball while no further dribble occurs, this will make calls much easier & clear cut.


Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref View Post
The dictionary definition of "come to rest" is to "slow down and stop."


If the ball is in your hand for two seconds, it has stopped there. period
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