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Old Fri Aug 09, 2013, 03:04am
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Basketball Traveling Rules/Picking up your dribble

Hello, I am just curious on a few rules of traveling in basketball especially the concept of "picking up your dribble"

First is what exactly counts as "picking up your dribble"? I know you are allowed two steps after you pick up your dribble but what defines the moment when it happens?

Rajon Rondo Highlights vs.Los Angeles Lakers 3/11/2012 - 24 points - Red eye game - YouTube

I am a Rondo fan, but in this particular play he takes one or two steps as the basketball hangs behind him after he dribbles, and then picks it up and takes his two steps. Would this be legal in a high school or college game? Couldn't you if you had the ball control and the arm length (as Rondo does), after that last dribble take several steps to better position your body before picking up your dribble for two steps?


Second situation is when you take your last dribble/step at the same time before taking your two steps. This is usually how some people do spin moves or "windmill crossovers"

Mr. Fourth Quarter (Kyrie Irving) - YouTube

In this video, Kyrie performs this, although his step may be a bit late. However, say his step were at the same moment as his last dribble and he picks up his dribble after that and takes his two steps. This is a very powerful finishing move and I was wondering if this is legal in high school/college. (this seems legal to me).


Finally the NCAA rules on traveling say

Art. 2. A player who catches the ball while moving or dribbling may stop and establish a pivot foot as follows:
a. When both feet are off the playing court and the player lands:

3. On one foot, the player may jump off that foot and simultaneously land on both; neither foot can be the pivot foot.

I know this is to help break momentum when catching a pass, but I don't see it being legal when picking up your dribble, especially as a finishing move.
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Old Fri Aug 09, 2013, 07:25am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S8on View Post
Hello, I am just curious on a few rules of traveling in basketball especially the concept of "picking up your dribble"

First is what exactly counts as "picking up your dribble"? I know you are allowed two steps after you pick up your dribble but what defines the moment when it happens?
First of all, you are not allowed two steps after your dribble. It's not about steps, it's about when the pivot foot is established and what is done with that foot. Once the pivot is established, the other foot may do anything. The pivot foot can be picked up, but may not come back to the floor until after the ball has been released for a shot or pass.

The exception to this is the jump stop, which you note in the NCAA rule. You're right, it would be illegal based on the pivot foot rule, except for the rule which allows it.

As for when the dribble is picked up, just know that if the player isn't holding the ball in this play, he can't establish a pivot foot or travel. Once he is holding the ball, the first foot down is the pivot foot (except in the NBA).

Based on that, once a player has established his pivot foot, he gets to take one more step before lifting his pivot foot (normally the trailing foot on a layup).

Does this make sense?
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Old Fri Aug 09, 2013, 07:33am
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Basketball rule questions
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Last edited by Raymond; Fri Aug 09, 2013 at 07:36am.
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Old Fri Aug 09, 2013, 10:24am
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Let's clear up a few things:

Steps aren't important when determining travelling under NFHS (high school) and NCAA rules. It's about establishing the pivot foot. Steps are only important under NBA rules. Also know that there are plays under NBA rules that are completely legal, but are not legal under NCAA/high school rules.

Also know that you can't travel unless you're holding the ball.

As for your last situation. I'm assuming you're trying to say that a player ends his dribble and gathers the ball while a foot is on the floor (we'll say the left foot)? If so, what can happen next depends on what rule set you're using:

NBA:

A player is allowed two steps after he has gathered the ball. The first step occurs after a player steps after he has ended his dribble. In this scenario:

1.) A1 may step with the right foot (step one), then step with the left foot (step two). In this case, the right foot would be the pivot foot.

2.) A1 may step with the right foot (step one), then jump off of that foot and land simultaneously with both feet (step two). A1 would not be able to pivot in this situation.

3.) A1 may jump off the left foot (the foot that was on the floor when the player ended his dribble) and land on both feet simultaneously (this is considered step one). Afterward, he may pivot with either foot.

Now let's take a look under NCAA and high school rules:

1.) A1 may step with his right foot. In this scenario, the left foot will be the pivot foot.

2.) A1 may jump off the left foot (the foot in which the player ended his dribble on, and land on both feet simultaneously. He may not pivot in this case.
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Old Fri Aug 09, 2013, 03:53pm
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I apologize for my poor choice of wording. I am sorry if this is completely off, but I hope to better understand this. (I read your responses and am still a bit confused)

according to NCAA rules

Art. 2. A player who catches the ball (I'm assuming this means pick up the dribble) while moving or dribbling may stop and establish a pivot foot as follows:

Let's say you take your last dribble and the ball hits the floor at the same moment as you take a step. (you are still dribbling the ball as you take that step). As the ball rises up, both your feet will be momentarily airborne and are off the playing court THEN you pick up/end your dribble while airborne.

a. When both feet are off the playing court and the player lands:
1. Simultaneously on both feet, either may be the pivot foot;

I'm assuming this is a jump stop. Left footstep same time as right hand dribble, you pick up your dribble as you are in the air and land on both feet. Now either foot can be the pivot.

2. On one foot followed by the other, the first foot to touch shall be the pivot foot;

I'm assuming this would be a spin move, or "windmill crossover" described. Left foostep/right hand dribble, you pick up the dribble as both feet are momentarily airborne and you step with your right foot (established pivot foot) then jump off your left foot and shoot.

3. On one foot, the player may jump off that foot and simultaneously land on both; neither foot can be the pivot foot.

Now apply the same situation as before with same last dribble/last step. Left foostep/right hand dribble, you pick up the dribble as both feet are momentarily airborne and land on one foot. Then you jump again and land on both feet. Would this be legal?

Last edited by S8on; Fri Aug 09, 2013 at 04:00pm.
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Old Fri Aug 09, 2013, 08:59pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S8on View Post
Now apply the same situation as before with same last dribble/last step. Left foostep/right hand dribble, you pick up the dribble as both feet are momentarily airborne and land on one foot. Then you jump again and land on both feet. Would this be legal?
The official must determine if one foot is on the floor or if neither foot is on the floor. If neither foot is on the floor, then the move you describe is legal.

This is ALSO (along with your example 1) defined as a "jump stop" in NCAA rules. Many of the other terms you use are "fan speak" or "coach speak" and have no specific meaning withing the rules or to officials.
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Old Fri Aug 09, 2013, 10:00pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S8on View Post
I apologize for my poor choice of wording. I am sorry if this is completely off, but I hope to better understand this. (I read your responses and am still a bit confused)

according to NCAA rules

Art. 2. A player who catches the ball (I'm assuming this means pick up the dribble) while moving or dribbling may stop and establish a pivot foot as follows:

Let's say you take your last dribble and the ball hits the floor at the same moment as you take a step. (you are still dribbling the ball as you take that step). As the ball rises up, both your feet will be momentarily airborne and are off the playing court THEN you pick up/end your dribble while airborne.

a. When both feet are off the playing court and the player lands:
1. Simultaneously on both feet, either may be the pivot foot;

I'm assuming this is a jump stop. Left footstep same time as right hand dribble, you pick up your dribble as you are in the air and land on both feet. Now either foot can be the pivot.

2. On one foot followed by the other, the first foot to touch shall be the pivot foot;

I'm assuming this would be a spin move, or "windmill crossover" described. Left foostep/right hand dribble, you pick up the dribble as both feet are momentarily airborne and you step with your right foot (established pivot foot) then jump off your left foot and shoot.

3. On one foot, the player may jump off that foot and simultaneously land on both; neither foot can be the pivot foot.

Now apply the same situation as before with same last dribble/last step. Left foostep/right hand dribble, you pick up the dribble as both feet are momentarily airborne and land on one foot. Then you jump again and land on both feet. Would this be legal?
These are the rules that describe the two types of "jump stops." You can't use them with regards to other situations where stepping with the pivot foot results in traveling.
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Last edited by BktBallRef; Sat Aug 10, 2013 at 08:24pm.
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Old Fri Aug 09, 2013, 10:15pm
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Originally Posted by S8on View Post
As the ball rises up, both your feet will be momentarily airborne and are off the playing court THEN you pick up/end your dribble while airborne.[/FONT][/I]
Others will not agree with this assessment.

How often does the above actually happen?

NOT VERY

But, err on the side of caution making this call. If you can imagine that this is what happened, play on.
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Old Sat Aug 10, 2013, 12:01am
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woeigoweihg

How about for the sake of even more simplicity I just ask if either of the two moves performed in the videos of the original post are legal and would they both be somewhat considered jump stops?

Last edited by S8on; Sat Aug 10, 2013 at 12:13am.
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Old Sat Aug 10, 2013, 07:56pm
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Can I interpret that you are saying is:

NCAA:
The moment your hand comes in contact (with no further dribble) with the ball determines when the pivot foot has established, not when the player actually hold the ball (ball comes to rest on hand).

NBA:
The moment the ball comes to rest is the moment the dribble ends, so gathering doesn't count as dribbling ended. But in this case there is a loophole where players can take 3-4 steps or even more towards the basket without dribbling, i.e hand in contact with ball + gather for 2 steps then hold the ball and take another pivot/non-pivot step.


so under these scanario it would be a travel for NCAA and legal in NBA:




Quote:
Originally Posted by APG View Post
Let's clear up a few things:
NBA:

A player is allowed two steps after he has gathered the ball. The first step occurs after a player steps after he has ended his dribble. In this scenario:

1.) A1 may step with the right foot (step one), then step with the left foot (step two). In this case, the right foot would be the pivot foot.

2.) A1 may step with the right foot (step one), then jump off of that foot and land simultaneously with both feet (step two). A1 would not be able to pivot in this situation.

3.) A1 may jump off the left foot (the foot that was on the floor when the player ended his dribble) and land on both feet simultaneously (this is considered step one). Afterward, he may pivot with either foot.

Now let's take a look under NCAA and high school rules:

1.) A1 may step with his right foot. In this scenario, the left foot will be the pivot foot.

2.) A1 may jump off the left foot (the foot in which the player ended his dribble on, and land on both feet simultaneously. He may not pivot in this case.

Last edited by potato; Sat Aug 10, 2013 at 08:01pm.
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Old Sat Aug 10, 2013, 08:46pm
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Honestly, I have no idea what you're saying there potato. When the ball is gathered means the dribble has ended or when a player has caught the ball...typically (but not always) when two hands are on the ball.

Regardless of rule set, determining the pivot foot begins when the dribble has ended/ball is caught (or gathered). Depending on if a foot is on floor, both feet on the floor, or both feet are in the air when the ball is caught/gathered/dribble has ended will determine what the player will next be able to do.
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Old Sun Aug 11, 2013, 07:51am
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Honestly, I have no idea what you're saying there potato.
It's the same thing he's posted twice before.

Of course, that might not help, because I really didn't understand it then, either. I think he's looking for a black and white answer to a judgment area.
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Old Sun Aug 11, 2013, 09:07am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by potato View Post
Can I interpret that you are saying is:

NCAA:
The moment your hand comes in contact (with no further dribble) with the ball determines when the pivot foot has established, not when the player actually hold the ball (ball comes to rest on hand).
....
You keep asking when the dribble ended and we keep telling you it's a judgment call by the official. When are you going to understand that?
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Old Sun Aug 11, 2013, 09:36am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by potato View Post
Can I interpret that you are saying is:

NCAA:
The moment your hand comes in contact (with no further dribble) with the ball determines when the pivot foot has established, not when the player actually hold the ball (ball comes to rest on hand)...

No, this is not what he's saying. Not at all. The pivot foot cannot be established until a player is holding the ball. This can happen with one or both hands (or a combination such as a hand and a hip, for example), but merely having a hand touch the ball does not constitute holding the ball. How do we define "holding" verses just "touching" the ball?

As bob says, sometimes you just have to officiate.
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Old Sun Aug 11, 2013, 07:33pm
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Meaning in NBA you don't establish pivot foot when you pick up the ball but only the step taken after you pick up the ball you establish a pivot?

While in NCAA you establish pivot foot when you hold the ball?

Still isn't it possible to be running 3, 4 or even 5 steps straight towards the basket (with hands on the ball) after a dribble without bouncing the ball again? For example A is dribbling, after the ball bounces he touches the ball with his hand (but not gathered) and runs 2 steps, then gathers & establish pivot on his 3rd step and take another 4th step with his non pivot foot so 4 steps straight to basket? Because officials determine the dribble ended only when the player gathers the ball and allow another pivot/non pivot foot steps. However in games players usually get called for traveling because simply "he took too many steps" while it's legal under the rules.

I would like to see a video where such scenario happen but it's hard to search a good example.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam View Post
No, this is not what he's saying. Not at all. The pivot foot cannot be established until a player is holding the ball. This can happen with one or both hands (or a combination such as a hand and a hip, for example), but merely having a hand touch the ball does not constitute holding the ball. How do we define "holding" verses just "touching" the ball?

As bob says, sometimes you just have to officiate.
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