I violated rule #1.....not THAT rule #1

[Loudwhistle]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

You've got it. Any direct technical foul on bench personnel (you can read the definitions to determine who is bench personnel when) is also an indirect on the head coach.

There is never an indirect T without a direct T. And only the direct T is penalized in the form of free throws and possession. The only impact of an indirect T is that it ends the coach's coaching box privileges and counts as one of his three toward ejection.

And to add incase some may not know, (not you jdw sure you do) the "t" on the assistant only counts as a foul towards the total team foul count. It sounds like two since its an indirect on the Head coach as well. For instance, if the black team had four team fouls and during a time out the asstant gets a "T" the team foul count would now say five team fouls. The head coach as has been already mentioned now has an indirect "t" and his happily sitting!

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Loudwhistle

And to add incase some may not know, (not you jdw sure you do) the "t" on the assistant only counts as a foul towards the total team foul count. It sounds like two since its an indirect on the Head coach as well. For instance, if the black team had four team fouls and during a time out the asstant gets a "T" the team foul count would now say five team fouls. The head coach as has been already mentioned now has an indirect "t" and his happily sitting!

Why's is gotta be the "black" team?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Loudwhistle

And to add incase some may not know, (not you jdw sure you do) the "t" on the assistant only counts as a foul towards the total team foul count. It sounds like two since its an indirect on the Head coach as well. For instance, if the black team had four team fouls and during a time out the asstant gets a "T" the team foul count would now say five team fouls. The head coach as has been already mentioned now has an indirect "t" and his happily sitting!

Indirect Ts never count towards the foul count; they all have an accompanying direct. It's one foul, I'm not sure why people seem to think the indirect would count towards the team foul count.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Why's is gotta be the "black" team?

Because "African American" has too many syllables.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Indirect Ts never count towards the foul count; they all have an accompanying direct. It's one foul, I'm not sure why people seem to think the indirect would count towards the team foul count.

This has been a common source of discussion almost annually at preseason meetings. Some have a hard time wrapping their minds around the indirect T. I always try to explain that the indirect isn't actually a foul. It's simply a way of tracking how many Ts have been called on bench personnel.

Once one grabs the concept that an indirect T never happens without an accompanying direct T, it seems to click.

[Loudwhistle]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

This has been a common source of discussion almost annually at preseason meetings. Some have a hard time wrapping their minds around the indirect T. I always try to explain that the indirect isn't actually a foul. It's simply a way of tracking how many Ts have been called on bench personnel.


Once one grabs the concept that an indirect T never happens without an accompanying direct T, it seems to click.

Agreed, I explain this to people (3-4) every year. Some are even officials!

I'll try to incorporate that wording, thanks. It just doesn't seem that confusing, but I have little rules that I get hung up on that other people master with no problem. One I have to slowly go through is when the opponents make a basket in the wrong hoop.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by stir22

i don't know how to handle the ***'t coaches. twice this year they have been yapping at me. do you guys even respond to them, or just tell the head coach to control his bench? a guy in our pool told me to never give a t to an ***'t coach...that it is always a t, indirect to the head coach, which counts towards ejection. any advice would be appreciated.

First, let's get this out of the way. The guy in your pool is an idiot.

As for the asst. coach, unless everyone in the gym hears him being an a$$, I usually give the coach an opportunity to take care of his asst. If he doesn't, I'll take care of him the next time he opens his yap.

I've stuck one asst. this year. Two players were going for the ball and her girl went down hard. Contact was incidental, no foul. She jumped off the bench and yelled for a foul. Easy WHACK!

In any case, handle it. Do not let an asst. run his mouth at you.

[Adam]

I've only had to ring up one assistant. They're star player traveled right before making a transition shot. I called the travel, and they thought at first I was calling a foul. Both coaches stood up and yelled at me for calling the travel. Easy T. Things went much smoother after that.

[Judtech]

Good reply's one and all. I will do my best to hit as many themes as possible:
- Yes, I was being a dick in #3 and #4. I admit it. Let emotions get the better of me for awhile. I apologized to the other coach and the offical about it.
- In #2 the official was right there and the tone I used wasn't bad and the official didn't seem to take it in a bad way. He actually said "Ok" Should I have said it? No. I usually tell my wife to tell the official those things.
- The only time I raised my voice was in talking with my players. I was not ranting and raving up and down the sidelines. In the past I had a tendancy to stand up and call plays etc, but I have worked very hard on staying seated doing the same thing.
- For those asking what I would have done with an assistant coach in that situation that is an interesting question. For starters, I wouldn't have missed those plays. Secondly,I would only address the head coach. In #4 I was the one being directly addressed, probably b/c I was the one instructing them to get to the 3 pt line. If the comments were directed to the head coach, it takes the AC out of the loop. Finally, I would have whacked me in #4 and call the bluff, I would have asked the HC to take care of her bench after #3 and maybe #2. But again, if you don't engage an AC in a conversation, it takes care of a lot of this.
- What "example" was I setting for the officials and/or our players. This is a really great question and we can go on and on. As for the officials, they were certainly not newbies. Even though they were not from our association, unless they started VERY late in life, they had been around a long time, so this was not a case of me picking on some newbies. It also goes to show that coaches and assistant coaches will give you as much crap as you are willing to take. Also, knowing the rules helps. Simple rule knowledge would have difused the whole scenario. With regards to the players, I know what we teach, I would be more interested in hearing what "bad things" were supposedly taught. I do know that it further emphasizes that officials don't cost you a game. Your actions as a player determines the outcome of a game.

- RICH in #1, I didn't say anything. Most of the rest of what you said I agree with 100%. Yes I was "That" guy, however, I'm not sure if they knew I officiated or not. I WAS glad my wife didn't play the "My husband is an official" card. As someone said to me "You tried to show up an official with your superior rules knowledge". That made the point to me.
- SNAQ - Thanks for clarifiying the "On the 3 pt line" comment. Glad our players understood it! Like I said, I would have whacked the mouthy assistant too! And my wife was shooting for the T and she is a very good shot!
- Freddy - Which one do you THINK you were
- ROCKY I do believe you did make up a new word, and I like it! Not sure how the players were involved in it however. They weren't being asked to do anything illegal
- MandM - you make great points. I would disagree about the equivelancy of officials and coaches. When I am officiating I could not care less who wins. I have only a vested interest the crew and me doing our jobs. I am an unbiased participant. As a coach, I have a vested interest and a biased view. Block, charge, hold, push, hit, those are the jobs of the officials, and knowing that I am biased actually helps me keep my mouth shut. More often than not I find myself explaining to our players WHY it was a foul and what they need to do to avoid a foul in the future. At least for me the emotions I feel as an official and a coach are completely different. I have been leading this "double life" for about 7 years, and my bench decorum hasn't been an issue with the exception of the above mentioned standing to call plays.
- JUST Really? Questioning my character on just this post? Did you ever have an assistant coach say anything to an official? Did you also find them of poor character and aberrant? I did not come here to brag, just state what happened. Hopefully, the above clarified.
- JUR REF - We obviously don't see eye to eye on much, but I would be interested in the "What if.." What if you received a tape of the above rules being kicked, of the officials addressing the AC etc. What action would you take? How would you handle the officials? (For this question, the AC would NOT be an official) Not trying to be a smart ***, but I think it might be helfpul to others on the board how something like this would play out. There are those who fear "getting a tape sent in", especially when they kicked something, and having the curtain pulled back may put some at ease.

Hope that clarifies things. Thanks for all the responses, makes for good reading and serves as good "penance" to keep myself in check!! "Read The Official Forum and memorize the "Bench Personnel" section of the rule book and sin no more! If I didn't address something you think I should, just let me know!

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

My point was running side-by-side doesn't make it any more difficult to maintain LGP, which was Judd's point.

If they're running side-by-side, the defender is no longer in the path of the opponent and has lost LGP if they ever had it.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

The lowered shoulder will tell you who initiated contact, even if it's not always relevant.

Agree.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

First of all, the shoulder thing is only a description of the play. The official's explanation, however, is that since she was running side-by-side there was no offensive foul.

As for LGP, he never says when she gained it. Assuming she had it before they started moving, which is a very likely scenario here, she does not lose it by merely running side by side with the offensive player.

Disagree...LGP requires being in the path...running side-by-side is not in the path.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Judtech

- JUR REF - We obviously don't see eye to eye on much, but I would be interested in the "What if.." What if you received a tape of the above rules being kicked, of the officials addressing the AC etc. What action would you take? How would you handle the officials? (For this question, the AC would NOT be an official) Not trying to be a smart ***, but I think it might be helfpul to others on the board how something like this would play out. There are those who fear "getting a tape sent in", especially when they kicked something, and having the curtain pulled back may put some at ease.

Sorry, Judtech. It's a waste of time trying to explain anything to you. You won't believe it anyway. You don't think like an official; you think like the worst example of a person trying to coach. You obviously don't think that you really did anything wrong and nothing any of us can say will change that. Good coaches know they will get weak officials now and then and they try to get through it. You and your wife? You try to intimidate weak officials to gain an unfair advantage. And then brag about it.

The problem is that you just ain't us. You may officiate but you aren't an official. That's my calm, cool and collected opinion of you...an opinion which I know you don't particulary care or worry about.

Carry on carrying on. But if you come here to brag about your carrying on, be prepared.

[Judtech]

Jurrasic Ref - Sorry you feel that way. I think I clearly stated what I did wrong and apologized for it.
"The worst example of a person trying to coach" is a bit hyperbolic, and while petty and personal attacks are something you default to, in this case I take exception. You have no idea what we do in practice. While I am not proud about the way I acted the other nite, I am VERY proud with what we have accomplished in the lives of the girls we have been fortunate enough to coach. As I told the girls yesterday in practice "saturday was a great example of someone BEING right, but not acting right. There is an intrinsic value in knowing you are correct, and sometimes it is best to keep that satisfaction to yourself."

IMO, it would be a great opportunity for you to share how you handle coaches turning in video about officials. As I said, I am not trying to be a smart ***, but it is a call that a lot of officials dread "Just got film from your game at XXX, so what exactly happened". Since you are a supervisor, it might be helpful to others to know what process and steps are taking before making that call.

But you were spot on. I am not one of "US". I try not to look at the world as "US" vs "THEM". (In full disclosure I am not one of "THEM" either). I love the game of basketball. I loved playing it, I love watching it at every level, I love officiating it and I love coaching it. The game has given me a lot, a college scholarship, a pay check, see the world, meet my wife, learn about myself and positively affect those around me. I do not fit that neatly into a label. There are not very many officials who also coach. There are not many coaches who coach with their spouse. Not sure what "label" that fits me with, but Crazy and Certifiable are two that come to mind! Or to get "touchy feely" I am just me!

[tref]

Originally Posted by Judtech

I love the game of basketball. I loved playing it, I love watching it at every level, I love officiating it and I love coaching it. The game has given me a lot, a college scholarship, a pay check, see the world, meet my wife, learn about myself and positively affect those around me. I do not fit that neatly into a label. There are not very many officials who also coach. There are not many coaches who coach with their spouse. Not sure what "label" that fits me with, but Crazy and Certifiable are two that come to mind! Or to get "touchy feely" I am just me!

Great points! I would just like to add, when you're in the AC role play THAT role & nothing more as we all know the coach that "refs too." When you're in the referee role play THAT role & nothing more as we should not coach players.

Had a game earlier in the season with an official that used to coach & was also an AD. We had a tough game from a consistency stand point as he refereed through a coaches/AD view of the game

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Judtech

As I told the girls yesterday in practice "saturday was a great example of someone BEING right, but not acting right. There is an intrinsic value in knowing you are correct, and sometimes it is best to keep that satisfaction to yourself."

That is the best lesson for everyone to learn from this situation.

My comment about "involving the players in the a$$-ness" was directed at the whole "stand at the 3-point line"...you knew the officials were wrong, but you wanted to show them up. And to do so, you involved your players - they were told by one authority figure to do one thing, and then by another authority figure to do something contradictory. To me - as a teacher, father, coach, and official - that is deplorable. You "used" your players to prove a point. That violates the trust they - and their parents - place in you as a coach.

So I would hope that you not only made your point above about being right, but also apologized for putting them in a situation they should not have been in.

Off my soap box now.

[Judtech]

Originally Posted by tref

Great points! I would just like to add, when you're in the AC role play THAT role & nothing more as we all know the coach that "refs too." When you're in the referee role play THAT role & nothing more as we should not coach players.

Had a game earlier in the season with an official that used to coach & was also an AD. We had a tough game from a consistency stand point as he refereed through a coaches/AD view of the game

Agree 100% it is a VERY difficult thing to do. 99 times out of 100 I just do my Jerry Tarkanian imitation and gnaw on a towel (even shared a few of those instances on the board) Screwed the pooch on this one.
You also bring up a GREAT point that I discussed with fellow referee's a few years ago. I don't know how long you have officiated, but for younger/newer officials it can be a bit intimidating to some to work a game where the AD and/or coach has officiating background. (which sounds like what you were experiencing) They may start second guessing what THEY are doing, and start to think about what the AD/Coach thinks. That is a recipe for failure. It would be akin to when I first started calling and my supervisor would be in the stands watching. Was I making/not making calls for the GAME or for THEM. After awhile, you don't even notice/care if they are there are not. A great take away from this experience for ME is to have that in the back of my mind for 30 year vets not just "newbies".