I violated rule #1.....not THAT rule #1

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

My point was running side-by-side doesn't make it any more difficult to maintain LGP, which was Judd's point.

If they're running side-by-side, the defender is no longer in the path of the opponent and has lost LGP if they ever had it.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

The lowered shoulder will tell you who initiated contact, even if it's not always relevant.

Agree.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

First of all, the shoulder thing is only a description of the play. The official's explanation, however, is that since she was running side-by-side there was no offensive foul.

As for LGP, he never says when she gained it. Assuming she had it before they started moving, which is a very likely scenario here, she does not lose it by merely running side by side with the offensive player.

Disagree...LGP requires being in the path...running side-by-side is not in the path.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Judtech

- JUR REF - We obviously don't see eye to eye on much, but I would be interested in the "What if.." What if you received a tape of the above rules being kicked, of the officials addressing the AC etc. What action would you take? How would you handle the officials? (For this question, the AC would NOT be an official) Not trying to be a smart ***, but I think it might be helfpul to others on the board how something like this would play out. There are those who fear "getting a tape sent in", especially when they kicked something, and having the curtain pulled back may put some at ease.

Sorry, Judtech. It's a waste of time trying to explain anything to you. You won't believe it anyway. You don't think like an official; you think like the worst example of a person trying to coach. You obviously don't think that you really did anything wrong and nothing any of us can say will change that. Good coaches know they will get weak officials now and then and they try to get through it. You and your wife? You try to intimidate weak officials to gain an unfair advantage. And then brag about it.

The problem is that you just ain't us. You may officiate but you aren't an official. That's my calm, cool and collected opinion of you...an opinion which I know you don't particulary care or worry about.

Carry on carrying on. But if you come here to brag about your carrying on, be prepared.

[Judtech]

Jurrasic Ref - Sorry you feel that way. I think I clearly stated what I did wrong and apologized for it.
"The worst example of a person trying to coach" is a bit hyperbolic, and while petty and personal attacks are something you default to, in this case I take exception. You have no idea what we do in practice. While I am not proud about the way I acted the other nite, I am VERY proud with what we have accomplished in the lives of the girls we have been fortunate enough to coach. As I told the girls yesterday in practice "saturday was a great example of someone BEING right, but not acting right. There is an intrinsic value in knowing you are correct, and sometimes it is best to keep that satisfaction to yourself."

IMO, it would be a great opportunity for you to share how you handle coaches turning in video about officials. As I said, I am not trying to be a smart ***, but it is a call that a lot of officials dread "Just got film from your game at XXX, so what exactly happened". Since you are a supervisor, it might be helpful to others to know what process and steps are taking before making that call.

But you were spot on. I am not one of "US". I try not to look at the world as "US" vs "THEM". (In full disclosure I am not one of "THEM" either). I love the game of basketball. I loved playing it, I love watching it at every level, I love officiating it and I love coaching it. The game has given me a lot, a college scholarship, a pay check, see the world, meet my wife, learn about myself and positively affect those around me. I do not fit that neatly into a label. There are not very many officials who also coach. There are not many coaches who coach with their spouse. Not sure what "label" that fits me with, but Crazy and Certifiable are two that come to mind! Or to get "touchy feely" I am just me!

[tref]

Originally Posted by Judtech

I love the game of basketball. I loved playing it, I love watching it at every level, I love officiating it and I love coaching it. The game has given me a lot, a college scholarship, a pay check, see the world, meet my wife, learn about myself and positively affect those around me. I do not fit that neatly into a label. There are not very many officials who also coach. There are not many coaches who coach with their spouse. Not sure what "label" that fits me with, but Crazy and Certifiable are two that come to mind! Or to get "touchy feely" I am just me!

Great points! I would just like to add, when you're in the AC role play THAT role & nothing more as we all know the coach that "refs too." When you're in the referee role play THAT role & nothing more as we should not coach players.

Had a game earlier in the season with an official that used to coach & was also an AD. We had a tough game from a consistency stand point as he refereed through a coaches/AD view of the game

[Judtech]

Originally Posted by tref

Great points! I would just like to add, when you're in the AC role play THAT role & nothing more as we all know the coach that "refs too." When you're in the referee role play THAT role & nothing more as we should not coach players.

Had a game earlier in the season with an official that used to coach & was also an AD. We had a tough game from a consistency stand point as he refereed through a coaches/AD view of the game

Agree 100% it is a VERY difficult thing to do. 99 times out of 100 I just do my Jerry Tarkanian imitation and gnaw on a towel (even shared a few of those instances on the board) Screwed the pooch on this one.
You also bring up a GREAT point that I discussed with fellow referee's a few years ago. I don't know how long you have officiated, but for younger/newer officials it can be a bit intimidating to some to work a game where the AD and/or coach has officiating background. (which sounds like what you were experiencing) They may start second guessing what THEY are doing, and start to think about what the AD/Coach thinks. That is a recipe for failure. It would be akin to when I first started calling and my supervisor would be in the stands watching. Was I making/not making calls for the GAME or for THEM. After awhile, you don't even notice/care if they are there are not. A great take away from this experience for ME is to have that in the back of my mind for 30 year vets not just "newbies".

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Judtech

As I told the girls yesterday in practice "saturday was a great example of someone BEING right, but not acting right. There is an intrinsic value in knowing you are correct, and sometimes it is best to keep that satisfaction to yourself."

That is the best lesson for everyone to learn from this situation.

My comment about "involving the players in the a$$-ness" was directed at the whole "stand at the 3-point line"...you knew the officials were wrong, but you wanted to show them up. And to do so, you involved your players - they were told by one authority figure to do one thing, and then by another authority figure to do something contradictory. To me - as a teacher, father, coach, and official - that is deplorable. You "used" your players to prove a point. That violates the trust they - and their parents - place in you as a coach.

So I would hope that you not only made your point above about being right, but also apologized for putting them in a situation they should not have been in.

Off my soap box now.

[Judtech]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

That is the best lesson for everyone to learn from this situation.

My comment about "involving the players in the a$$-ness" was directed at the whole "stand at the 3-point line"...you knew the officials were wrong, but you wanted to show them up. And to do so, you involved your players - they were told by one authority figure to do one thing, and then by another authority figure to do something contradictory. To me - as a teacher, father, coach, and official - that is deplorable. You "used" your players to prove a point. That violates the trust they - and their parents - place in you as a coach.

So I would hope that you not only made your point above about being right, but also apologized for putting them in a situation they should not have been in.

Off my soap box now.

Great soap box to be on. I see where you are coming from in your post now. If I may, I would LOVE to share an exchange our team had, I will try (and fail) to make it brief. We only have 3 rules on our team, one of which is "Control what you can control" During our practice meeting one of the players said "Yeah coach you violated Rule #2. Like you always say, you can't control what the official does, but you can control how you respond to it. SO since you broke a rule we have to bench you!" Then it occured to them that since I already am on the bench it wasn't that big a deal, so they thought I should run!!! I told them that since THEY followed rule #2 and I didn't I would give them a 5 Sprint credit they could use any time in practice!!! Kids, just when you think they don't pay attention!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Judtech

"The worst example of a person trying to coach" is a bit hyperbolic, and while petty and personal attacks are something you default to, in this case I take exception.

I deliberately said it that way because the vast majority of coaches that I've met over the years would never dream of doing any of the despicable crap that you described...and gloated about...in your original post. Guilt by association with someone like you...and I hate to say it but your wife also because it seems she condones your actions.... would have just been wrong on my part.

You just don't get it, Judtech. I worry about my fellow officials...and the state of basketball. I worry about all of the players. I worry about the good coaches that we meet, the ones that care for the game and teaching life lessons. Do I care or worry about coaches like you? Never. You eventually reap what you sow, and now you're reaping it in this thread. And there's nothing personal about it either. It's an indictment of all the coaches that share your team-first no matter what mentality.

End of wasted sermon. Fell free to ignore.