I violated rule #1.....not THAT rule #1

[Adam]

Originally Posted by bainsey

How can you even obtain LGP when you're running side-by-side with an opponent? My point is, LGP shouldn't factor into this equation, so why mention it to the official?

First of all, the shoulder thing is only a description of the play. The official's explanation, however, is that since she was running side-by-side there was no offensive foul.

As for LGP, he never says when she gained it. Assuming she had it before they started moving, which is a very likely scenario here, she does not lose it by merely running side by side with the offensive player.

[Adam]

My comments earlier notwithstanding, item #1 in the OP would have drawn a warning to the HC for me. I certainly wouldn't have answered the comment from the AC.
His final comment in #2 would have drawn a T from me.

I'm assuming all future discussions would have taken a different format after the T.

[stir22]

this is an interesting thread; thanks to all.

i have two questions: newer ref, 3rd year, mid-level rating in out pool.

first, regarding the dropped shoulder- some of our guys say its an automatic charge...some don't. i don't know what to do. i've only called it twice (dropped shoulder charge), neither time was the call in doubt. can any of you veterans expound on when this wouldn't be a charge?

secondly, i don't know how to handle the ***'t coaches. twice this year they have been yapping at me. do you guys even respond to them, or just tell the head coach to control his bench? a guy in our pool told me to never give a t to an ***'t coach...that it is always a t, indirect to the head coach, which counts towards ejection. any advice would be appreciated.

thank you.

[tref]

Originally Posted by stir22

this is an interesting thread; thanks to all.

i have two questions: newer ref, 3rd year, mid-level rating in out pool.

first, regarding the dropped shoulder- some of our guys say its an automatic charge...some don't. i don't know what to do. i've only called it twice (dropped shoulder charge), neither time was the call in doubt. can any of you veterans expound on when this wouldn't be a charge?

Its not a p/c foul when contact is not made or when it doesnt put the defender at a disadvantage.

Originally Posted by stir22

secondly, i don't know how to handle the ***'t coaches. twice this year they have been yapping at me. do you guys even respond to them, or just tell the head coach to control his bench? a guy in our pool told me to never give a t to an ***'t coach...that it is always a t, indirect to the head coach, which counts towards ejection. any advice would be appreciated.

thank you.

There sure are a lot of automatics, nevers & always...

Say the assistant coach calls you an a-hole, you hit the bench & indirect to the HC. He says it again, you could've ran him this time but you chose not to assess it to the AC.

If I have definite knowledge of the offender on the bench, I give it directly to them & indirectly to the coach.

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by stir22

this is an interesting thread; thanks to all.

i have two questions: newer ref, 3rd year, mid-level rating in out pool.

first, regarding the dropped shoulder- some of our guys say its an automatic charge...some don't. i don't know what to do. i've only called it twice (dropped shoulder charge), neither time was the call in doubt. can any of you veterans expound on when this wouldn't be a charge?

Dropping the shoulder and charging into an opponent violates 10-6-1 as they are impeding the progress of an opponent by extending a shoulder and employing rough tactics. This rule does not say any thing about the opponent having to have LGP.

secondly, i don't know how to handle the ***'t coaches. twice this year they have been yapping at me. do you guys even respond to them, or just tell the head coach to control his bench? a guy in our pool told me to never give a t to an ***'t coach...that it is always a t, indirect to the head coach, which counts towards ejection. any advice would be appreciated.

thank you.

Asst coaches are bench personnel. If they commit an unsporting act, you charge the AC with a direct T and the HC gets an indirect T.

It sounds like you've been advised to T the HC instead of the AC under the theory he's responsible for the AC's conduct. Don't do this. The indirect T the coach gets already takes care of this.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by stir22

this is an interesting thread; thanks to all.

i have two questions: newer ref, 3rd year, mid-level rating in out pool.

first, regarding the dropped shoulder- some of our guys say its an automatic charge...some don't. i don't know what to do. i've only called it twice (dropped shoulder charge), neither time was the call in doubt. can any of you veterans expound on when this wouldn't be a charge?

The key is to officiate the defense. Dropping the shoulder takes away some of the doubt, but it's still not automatic. If the defender is coming at the ball handler, the ball handler is allowed to protect himself; and lowering his shoulder could be a means of bracing for contact.

Knowing whether the defender has LGP is the key here.

Originally Posted by stir22

secondly, i don't know how to handle the ***'t coaches. twice this year they have been yapping at me. do you guys even respond to them, or just tell the head coach to control his bench? a guy in our pool told me to never give a t to an ***'t coach...that it is always a t, indirect to the head coach, which counts towards ejection. any advice would be appreciated.

thank you.

I'm not even sure what he means. You absolutely can give a T to the assistant coach, and it still gets applied to the HC indirectly.

A quick word to the HC will usually take care of it; "Coach, I'll answer questions if I have time, but your AC doesn't get the same privileges you do." That usually works, or you can be more direct with, "Coach, please take control of your bench."

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by stir22

this is an interesting thread; thanks to all.

i have two questions: newer ref, 3rd year, mid-level rating in out pool.

first, regarding the dropped shoulder- some of our guys say its an automatic charge...some don't. i don't know what to do. i've only called it twice (dropped shoulder charge), neither time was the call in doubt. can any of you veterans expound on when this wouldn't be a charge?

secondly, i don't know how to handle the ***'t coaches. twice this year they have been yapping at me. do you guys even respond to them, or just tell the head coach to control his bench? a guy in our pool told me to never give a t to an ***'t coach...that it is always a t, indirect to the head coach, which counts towards ejection. any advice would be appreciated.

thank you.

First, I don't consider lowering the shoulder an "automatic" call, as there is no specific provision in the rules for such. Remember, you are still trying to determine who initiates contact, and whether such contact is illegal and puts the other player at a disadvantage. While it is probably a good indication that someone who lowers their shoulder might indeed be trying to push their way through, or clear out space, it is not an automatic. I've seen players lower their shoulder to protect from an onrushing defender, for example.

In your second question, I'm not quite following - are you saying you've been told not to give a T to an assistant coach, because it would also be an indirect to the HC? If so, that would be bad advice. That is exactly the reason you would inform the HC that they are indeed responsible for the behavior of their benches, and if the HC cannot control it, the HC will also be penalized with the indirect.

[M&M Guy]

I guess I'm losing my speed typing skills.

So, what they said, above.

[stir22]

many, many thanks...

[26 Year Gap]

Where to start? I guess you are lucky you didn't have to listen to the rest of the game in your car. Were you hoping the official would see you officiate in a game sometime to see how it's done? Too bad Padgett didn't have your game. Your shoes wouldn't have been the only thing that got puked on, and deservedly so.

[Rich]

Sorry to say, but you were "that guy." You know, the coach that lets everyone know that he is an official (whether you did or not).

I'm certainly not perfect and I've worked with partners that make mistakes too, but had I known you were an official and you acted that way, you'd probably be checking which radio station was carrying the game so you could listen in the car.

In #1, why are you talking to the official? You're the assistant coach - keep your mouth shut.

#2 I'd whack you right there. I wouldn't have said what that official said, certainly, but that phrase from you would result in free throws being shot and your wife sitting down.

#3 - Whack if you hadn't had one. Ejection if you had.

#4 - You really have nerve as an assistant coach. Sounds like the officials aren't the only one who have learning to do. Sounds like you need to learn your role. Hint: It's a more silent one when it comes to the officials.

[stir22]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

First, I don't consider lowering the shoulder an "automatic" call, as there is no specific provision in the rules for such. Remember, you are still trying to determine who initiates contact, and whether such contact is illegal and puts the other player at a disadvantage. While it is probably a good indication that someone who lowers their shoulder might indeed be trying to push their way through, or clear out space, it is not an automatic. I've seen players lower their shoulder to protect from an onrushing defender, for example.

In your second question, I'm not quite following - are you saying you've been told not to give a T to an assistant coach, because it would also be an indirect to the HC? If so, that would be bad advice. That is exactly the reason you would inform the HC that they are indeed responsible for the behavior of their benches, and if the HC cannot control it, the HC will also be penalized with the indirect.

so, forgive my ignorance, but sometimes i have a hard time reading the legalese the way the rule book is written.

so, if the assistant coach gets a t, it is an indirect to the head coach.

we're shooting only two, though, right?

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by stir22

so, forgive my ignorance, but sometimes i have a hard time reading the legalese the way the rule book is written.

so, if the assistant coach gets a t, it is an indirect to the head coach.

we're shooting only two, though, right?

Correct. With the added penalty of the HC losing the coaching box priviledges.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by stir22

so, forgive my ignorance, but sometimes i have a hard time reading the legalese the way the rule book is written.

so, if the assistant coach gets a t, it is an indirect to the head coach.

we're shooting only two, though, right?

You've got it. Any direct technical foul on bench personnel (you can read the definitions to determine who is bench personnel when) is also an indirect on the head coach.

There is never an indirect T without a direct T. And only the direct T is penalized in the form of free throws and possession. The only impact of an indirect T is that it ends the coach's coaching box privileges and counts as one of his three toward ejection.

[26 Year Gap]

There is a great summary of technical fouls following the rules section. I refer to it several times during the season. No shots for indirect...they are given because of someone else's infraction.