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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 25, 2011, 12:37pm
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8-1-5: must be behind the three-point line.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 25, 2011, 12:41pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee View Post
Agree. That type of behavior isn't something to be proud of, no matter how bad the officials were. It's unprofessional as hell. If one of our guys does something like this while he's coaching, we tell him to pick an avocation because we ain't gonna let him ride our officials, especially as an assistant coach.
Which is why it's important to establish who the HC is and who the AC is. It only takes 2 seconds and 1 question.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 25, 2011, 12:45pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BayStateRef View Post
8-1-5: must be behind the three-point line.
Yup.....behind.....
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 25, 2011, 12:48pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judtech View Post
Forgive me board for I have "sorta" sinned. It has been......lets just say a long time since my last confession...
Intersting game Saturday. I actaully verbally criticized an official from my Assistant Coach perch!! Here are the plays:
1. V1 strips the ball, as it rolls on the floor V1 tries to pick it up but it keeps rolling. TRAVEL. "You can't travel if you don't have possesion" Ofc1: "Once she touches it she has possesion."
2. H1 drives to the basket V1 guarding. H1 lowers shoulder and puts V1 into the wall. No call. "Why was there no call? She lowered her shoulder" Ofc2: "They were running side by side when the girl put her shoulder down so no call". ME: "You might want to check LGP in your rule book at half time"
3. H ball. Deflection. H1 takes 2 dribbles in front court, crosses line, and one dribble in back court before returning. No over and back. OFC1: " She didn't have possession" ME: "According to you she did. She "Touched" the ball in front court before going to the back court" Later, same play, but V1 takes one dribble then steps in back court. OFC3 makes the CORRECT call. Wife YELLS across court to first official "That is the same call YOU screwed up. Maybe you should take notes from this guy!" OFC: "I know the rules. I don't need any help" "You don't know s*$%!" with a nice foot stomp for good measure.She got the T!
4. While administering the T. I direct two of our players to stand on the 3 point line behind the shooter. OFC1 blows the whistle and tells our girls to get back behind the line. I tell them to stay exactly where they are and don't tmove (The girls LOVED that) After some back and forth OFC1 tells us we have to move the girls back. I ask him why? He says it is the rules and if we dont' he will eject the head coach. I stood up and asked him in an even voice. "Are you 100% sure you are right? Because if you toss her, you have to send in paperwork. How embarrassed are you going to be when you find out that you ejected a coach becasue YOU don't know the rules." OFC1 "I don't need a lecture on the rules from an Assistant Coach" ME: "Then you make the call, b/c our girls aint moving". OFC3 comes over and huddles them together. Our girls stay. And yes it had the desired affect of freezing their shooter as she proceeded to miss her second shot!

After the game OFC3 comes and apologizes to me about the rules that were kicked. I told him that is fine, at the end of the day you can only be responsible for the calls YOU make and he made the right call on the OandB as well as the T administration. It also helped that we won after being outshot on the FT line by 35. Leading a double life can be so confusing!
None of that justifies your behavior. If he had stuck you, he would have definitely have gotten that call correct.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 25, 2011, 12:52pm
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Originally Posted by rockyroad View Post
Gotta agree with this...not sure how Judtech's actions made the situation any better. And if I'm on this game, no way an AC gets to take that many shots at my crew.
The competency of the officials is one matter. A lack of competency by the officials never excuses horsesh!t behavior like that though. Intimidating some very obviously inexperienced officials is hardly something to brag about imo, especially on an officials forum.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 25, 2011, 12:59pm
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Originally Posted by Treeguy View Post
Fogive me if I am wrong, but shouldn't the players be behind the tree point line and not on it? I read a comment yesterday that if you are touching the three point line, you are considered inside the three point line.
Yes, but that's what he meant.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 25, 2011, 12:59pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BayStateRef View Post
8-1-5: must be behind the three-point line.
. . . and the free throw line extended.

Sorry for the obviousness of that. New guy I'm mentoring got the first part and forgot the second, banishing everyone above the top of the arc.

Or did I miss the point of the response?
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 25, 2011, 01:02pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee View Post
The competency of the officials is one matter. A lack of competency by the officials never excuses horsesh!t behavior like that though. Intimidating some very obviously inexperienced officials is hardly something to brag about imo, especially on an officials forum.
Agreed...there is an established protocol (at least around here) for coaches to "complain" to the assignor about incompetent officials. It involves filling in a short form and send in a dvd of the game film...it certainly does not involve being an a$$ during the game, and involving your players in that a$$-ness.

HEy - I think I just made up a new word!
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 25, 2011, 01:02pm
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Originally Posted by bainsey View Post
NFHS 4-23-3? I don't see "shoulder" anywhere. Or did you mean elsewhere?
My point was running side-by-side doesn't make it any more difficult to maintain LGP, which was Judd's point.

The lowered shoulder will tell you who initiated contact, even if it's not always relevant.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 25, 2011, 01:12pm
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You're an official, you should know better than to act like this, especially from the assistant seat. Officials make mistakes. Maybe these officials weren't ready for a varsity game? Either way, you understand how to approach them in an appropriate manner, yet you chose not to. You even mention that your players were getting a "kick" out of your unsporting behavior. That's a great life-lesson you're teaching those young people Coach.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 25, 2011, 01:17pm
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Judtech, as others have already mentioned, for the most part your behavior was not appropriate. I certainly understand playing, coaching, and officiating sports can be emotional, but if you notice, the better officials tend to not let their emotions get the better of them during a game. That might be a skill you can hone during your time as the AC. Truthfully, as an official, have you ever changed a call due to comments made by an AC? Also, wouldn't the tone of the comments, or the wording, make you less likely to change a call? Maybe it feels good to say those things, but what else does it accomplish other than provide an adversarial relationship? Have you ever known comments said from the bench during a game to ever improve the competency level of the officials? All things considered, it would provide a better example to the team to be quiet in those instances.

With regard to how you handled the FT issue - you were correct in that your team was able to stand where they were, provided they were standing outside the arc, not on it. However, your interaction with the official probably would've carried more weight had you not made any of the previous, unnecessary comments. You could've also asked him to confer with his partners to make sure he was correct. But were you willing to follow through with having your head coach ejected? What would it REALLY accomplish? (Other than you now get to coach the rest of the game?...How would that fly later on that evening?) What example does that really give the kids? How would that differ from sending a tape to the assignor, while not saying anything during the game itself?

Now, maybe you realize this - thus your attendance in the Officials' Confessional. But the real test is whether you actually learn from your mistakes, or if you continue to make the same mistakes going forward. Being professional applies to both officials and coaches, but even more so to ones who happen to be both.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 25, 2011, 01:19pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judtech View Post
Leading a double life can be so confusing!
Officiating such as you have described was one of the main motivations that got me involved in officiating. I have been in games where the officiating was not up to snuff and I managed to restrain myself until I could get a private moment with the aberrant official after the game. I find your actions thoroughly detestable. Shame, Shame, Shame on you. You missed a chance to be a positive influence on that ref. I really question your character to have the chutzpah to come here bragging about berating and humiliating a fellow official. I am embarrassed by and for you. How would you explain this escapade to your association leadership?
'Nuff said
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 25, 2011, 01:22pm
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Had I been calling the game, your wife would have gotten the first T of the night and you would hav gotten the second. No way in the world I am going to put up with that kind of behavior from a HC, much less an assistant.

Bad enough that you did it; really bad that you "brag" about it and extremely bad since you are an official as well.

Ask yourself this question. How long would you have tolerated that behavior from an AC had you been officiating the game? You might not have missed those calls but you would have done something the coaches did not like.

Poor behavior IMHO - very poor.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 25, 2011, 01:29pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
My point was running side-by-side doesn't make it any more difficult to maintain LGP, which was Judd's point.
How can you even obtain LGP when you're running side-by-side with an opponent? My point is, LGP shouldn't factor into this equation, so why mention it to the official?

Quote:
The lowered shoulder will tell you who initiated contact, even if it's not always relevant.
Often true, but not always. There are those that say it's always a charge if the dribbler/shooter lowers his shoulder, but I've never found that in the rule book. I'd like to be pointed out that passage, if it exists.
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 25, 2011, 01:30pm
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Originally Posted by rockyroad View Post
Gotta agree with this...not sure how Judtech's actions made the situation any better. And if I'm on this game, no way an AC gets to take that many shots at my crew.
This is kinda what I was thinking reading through the OP......
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