How would you rule?

[greymule]

Along the lines of the play discussed in "Here is one that caused a stir this weekend," how would you rule on the following plays?:

Play A

Girls' FP, tie score, one out, bottom of 7th. Abel on 2B, Baker on 1B. Charles lines a hit to left. F7 fields the ball on one hop and throws home. Abel stops on 3B, Baker on 2B. Charles, however, rounds—and misses—1B and stops halfway between 1B and 2B to draw a play. Instead of returning the ball to the circle, F2 throws to F3, who tags Charles for out number 2 as Abel scores the apparent winning run. However, F3 noticed Charles's miss of 1B and, with the offense celebrating, tags Baker off 2B and then runs back to 1B to appeal Charles's miss for the advantageous fourth out. The appeal at 1B is upheld. Would you rule the inning over and nullify the run? (I would.)

Play B

Same play, except that after Charles is tagged out and Abel scores, Baker remains at 2B and does not budge. F3 stands near 2B waiting to tag Baker when she leaves the bag. The offensive coach, having figured out what is going on, orders Baker to keep her foot on 2B.

Where do we go from here?

[CecilOne]

If they can't get a nullifying out, game over.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by greymule

Girls' FP, tie score, one out, bottom of 7th. Abel on 2B, Baker on 1B. Charles lines a hit to left. F7 fields the ball on one hop and throws home. Abel stops on 3B, Baker on 2B. Charles, however, rounds—and misses—1B and stops halfway between 1B and 2B to draw a play. Instead of returning the ball to the circle, F2 throws to F3, who tags Charles for out number 2 as Abel scores the apparent winning run. However, F3 noticed Charles's miss of 1B and, with the offense celebrating, tags Baker off 2B and then runs back to 1B to appeal Charles's miss for the advantageous fourth out. The appeal at 1B is upheld. Would you rule the inning over and nullify the run? (I would.)

Okay, runners on 1B & 2B, 1 out. Hit to left. Runners advance one base and now-R3 is tagged out along with R2. On a live ball fourth-out appeal (which is actually only the 3rd out), the result of the appeal is that the BR never safely advanced to 1B, no runs score.

Same play, except that after Charles is tagged out and Abel scores, Baker remains at 2B and does not budge. F3 stands near 2B waiting to tag Baker when she leaves the bag. The offensive coach, having figured out what is going on, orders Baker to keep her foot on 2B.

Where do we go from here?

I don't go anywhere, ask the player with the ball.

[gsf23]

Originally Posted by greymule

Along the lines of the play discussed in "Here is one that caused a stir this weekend," how would you rule on the following plays?:

Play A

Girls' FP, tie score, one out, bottom of 7th. Abel on 2B, Baker on 1B. Charles lines a hit to left. F7 fields the ball on one hop and throws home. Abel stops on 3B, Baker on 2B. Charles, however, rounds—and misses—1B and stops halfway between 1B and 2B to draw a play. Instead of returning the ball to the circle, F2 throws to F3, who tags Charles for out number 2 as Abel scores the apparent winning run. However, F3 noticed Charles's miss of 1B and, with the offense celebrating, tags Baker off 2B and then runs back to 1B to appeal Charles's miss for the advantageous fourth out. The appeal at 1B is upheld. Would you rule the inning over and nullify the run? (I would.)

The part that has me a little confused is that they are apparently getting two outs on the same player, Charles.

Charles is the hitter and is tagged out while standing between 1B and 2B for the second out. Baker is then tagged between 2B and 3B for the third out and now they are appealing Charles, who has already been put out, for missing 1B. Wouldn't the tagging of Charles take care of the missed 1B? I would think that the tagging of Charles would be the live-ball appeal for the missed base. Am I wrong in thinking that?

Similar situation, Charles hits ball to the outfield gap with one out, he misses first on his way to second and is then thrown out at 2B for the second out of the inning. The defense can now appeal Charles missing first base for the third out of the inning? Or is this now allowed as it would not be an advantagous 4th out?

[tcblue13]

Originally Posted by greymule

Along the lines of the play discussed in "Here is one that caused a stir this weekend," how would you rule on the following plays?:

Play A

Girls' FP, tie score, one out, bottom of 7th. Abel on 2B, Baker on 1B. Charles lines a hit to left. F7 fields the ball on one hop and throws home. Abel stops on 3B, Baker on 2B. Charles, however, rounds—and misses—1B and stops halfway between 1B and 2B to draw a play. Instead of returning the ball to the circle, F2 throws to F3, who tags Charles for out number 2 as Abel scores the apparent winning run. However, F3 noticed Charles's miss of 1B and, with the offense celebrating, tags Baker off 2B and then runs back to 1B to appeal Charles's miss for the advantageous fourth out. The appeal at 1B is upheld. Would you rule the inning over and nullify the run? (I would.)

Play B

Same play, except that after Charles is tagged out and Abel scores, Baker remains at 2B and does not budge. F3 stands near 2B waiting to tag Baker when she leaves the bag. The offensive coach, having figured out what is going on, orders Baker to keep her foot on 2B.

Where do we go from here?

1. If Charles is tagged out between 1st and 2nd. Do you still have the option of the appeal for missing the base?
2. If yes, Is that in all rulsets? (please cite FED rule # or #'s)

Once she has passed the base, she is considered to have reached that base. Once she is tagged out between 1B and 2B all forces are off. This was the 2nd out. R1 scores. R2 abandons 2B having advanced safely on the initial force because she believes the game is over. She is tagged by F3 for the 3rd out.

I know I reiterated the play my own way but dang. Can one player make 2 outs (2nd and 4th)? My gut says game over Home team wins by 1 run.
In Play B is the appeal at 1B still made? Would that mean that Charles merely made the 2nd out twice ?
Now it's game over home team wins?

New Sitch
Tied Game in 6th
2 Outs
R1 on 3B, R2 on 1B
Batter hits safely to RF
R1 lopes home
R2 misses 2B and attempts to score.
The throw from F9 is on the money at the plate and R2 is tagged for the 3rd out.

3. Even though she is tagged out at the plate can she be appealed for missing 2B and nullify the run? I think yes here so I guess the same principle is at work in Play A.

It just seems to me that the tag out in Play A of Charles would remove the appeal.
I would appreciate detailed explanations so I can get this.
Thanks

[mcrowder]

Charles's out is in effect nullified by the appeal. Charles can't be put out twice in any of the various corollaries mentioned - but his out can change from being the 2nd out to being the 3rd out, and in the case of the OP, it matters.

[CecilOne]

And some people think checked swings and OBS are hard to sell.

[tcblue13]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

And some people think checked swings and OBS are hard to sell.

D A N G

[gsf23]

Originally Posted by greymule

Along the lines of the play discussed in "Here is one that caused a stir this weekend," how would you rule on the following plays?:


Play B

Same play, except that after Charles is tagged out and Abel scores, Baker remains at 2B and does not budge. F3 stands near 2B waiting to tag Baker when she leaves the bag. The offensive coach, having figured out what is going on, orders Baker to keep her foot on 2B.

Where do we go from here?

I think I am going home cause the game is over. Tie game bottom of seventh, charles is tagged for the second out, Abel scored giving the home team the lead, Baker advanced from first to second and isn't forced to go to third, seems to me the game is over.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by tcblue13

New Sitch
Tied Game in 6th
2 Outs
R1 on 3B, R2 on 1B
Batter hits safely to RF
R1 lopes home
R2 misses 2B and attempts to score.
The throw from F9 is on the money at the plate and R2 is tagged for the 3rd out.

3. Even though she is tagged out at the plate can she be appealed for missing 2B and nullify the run? I think yes here so I guess the same principle is at work in Play A.

It just seems to me that the tag out in Play A of Charles would remove the appeal.
I would appreciate detailed explanations so I can get this.
Thanks

The fourth out to nullify a run can only be applied to a runner who has scored. So in your situation and in Play A, it would not nullify the run. However, if we are saying that it is valid to appeal a player missing a base that has already been put out and that the appeal is a force out, then I guess the run would not score. However, the rulebook says that no runs score if the 3rd out is a force out. Its says nothing about the 4th out being a force out. WHEW! Say that 3 times fast! We need clarification!

[greymule]

The fourth out to nullify a run can only be applied to a runner who has scored.

This is not true. Bases loaded, 2 out. BR hits a double to clear the bases but is out trying for 3B. BR is then called out on appeal for having missed 1B. The advantageous fourth out means that no runs score. All 3 runs are nullified.

Every code I know of permits the advantageous fourth (or even fifth) out.

[Steve M]

Play A
As soon as Baker hits 2B, the game is over from my perspective. The winning run has scored. Those who were forced to advance, did advance 1 base or more. Since there was only 1 out at TOP, it does not matter what happens to Charles. So I'm calling Time and not allowing the extra stuff to happen.
Now, if there are 2 outs at the TOP, play it out and I would accept the appeal on Charles missing 1B.

Play B
After it's obvious that play is over and the defense is just grasping at straws byt hoping Baker leaves 2B, Time called. Once I've called Time, nothing else matters. We've got all the time in the world to figure that out.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Steve M

Play A
As soon as Baker hits 2B, the game is over from my perspective. The winning run has scored. Those who were forced to advance, did advance 1 base or more. Since there was only 1 out at TOP, it does not matter what happens to Charles. So I'm calling Time and not allowing the extra stuff to happen.
Now, if there are 2 outs at the TOP, play it out and I would accept the appeal on Charles missing 1B.

Play B
After it's obvious that play is over and the defense is just grasping at straws byt hoping Baker leaves 2B, Time called. Once I've called Time, nothing else matters. We've got all the time in the world to figure that out.

If it doesn't matter, why do you need to call time?

Second play isn't even a discussion.

First play, you've got my attention. I would agree if there was a lull in the play. If this was all continuous, I would have to take a lot into consideration. I may take into consideration how the runner on 2B came to be tagged. If it was obvious the runner was still involved in the play and got caught. What was the timing of this as compared to the run scoring. IOW, HTBT and you just cannot dismiss the possibility of anything on this play depending on how it developed.

However, after rereading the OP, I would have to change the way I saw the play and agree with Steve on this particular play.

[greymule]

As soon as Baker hits 2B, the game is over from my perspective.

Baker hit 2B well before Charles was tagged for the second out, and well before Abel scored.

In my opinion, Play A is not over as long as Charles's miss is a possible inning-ending fourth out.

In Play B, I guess I'd say the play is over when the actions stops and Baker is obviously refusing to leave the safety of 2B. So if the defense proceeded to appeal 1B, it would take a hit away from Charles, but it would not affect the outcome of the game.

I'm not sure I could justify the gratutious calling of time with a play possible.

[mcrowder]

I think you'd be warranted, if Baker was simply standing on the bag, in making a gratuitous call of "Ballgame!"