When does travel occur?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Rules citation? Is the ball "loose"? Has it gotten "away" from the dribbler?

I don't have one, so there. I'd say it's loose in this case, even though it's not away from the dribbler.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I don't have one, so there. I'd say it's loose in this case, even though it's not away from the dribbler.

Years ago(mid-late 80's iirc), the FED issued a ruling on what an interrupted dribble was. They did so because for a year or so they had a rule that said that it was a violation if you tried to continue dribbling after re-gaining control of an interrupted dribble. Stoopid rule; they got rid of it real quick. Anyway, the FED said that a dribble was "interrupted" if a player couldn't immediately dribble if they wanted to. Iow, it met the criteria of current rule 4-15-5--ball is loose or momentarily gets away from the dribbler. Note the word 'away'.

Unfortunately, like a lot of other interpretations issued, that one got lost in the sands of time. The rule book however still uses "loose" and "away from the dribbler". A ball simply bouncing at the side of a player is neither loose nor away.

That said, it's also my opinion that dropping the ball while airborne and not touching it again is not a violation. There's a case book play(4-44-3SitB) that says it's a violation if an airborne player drops the ball to the floor AND then dribbles. That case book play doesn't say that it's a violation if that airborne player only drops the ball to the floor and doesn't touch it again. I think that if the FED had meant for that scenario to be a violation also, they would have written it as such.

[eg-italy]

Originally Posted by canuckrefguy

Smart a$$ We use FIBA, so no lame bailouts by calling time out.

Let's change the scenario a tiny bit.

Your guy does the same thing, but instead of "dropping" the ball and re-gaining possession, he forces the ball down, aka starts a dribble.

Violation? Yup - for moving pivot foot before dribbling.

The two plays are the same.

From FIBA official rules 2008:

24.1.1 A dribble starts when a player, having gained control of a live ball on the playing court, throws, taps, rolls, dribbles it on the floor or deliberately throws it against the backboard and touches it again before it touches another player.

The OP's case is not a violation until the offensive player touches again the ball (FIBA rules). The start of the dribble is when the ball leaves the player's hands, but a travel or an illegal dribble cannot be called until the player touches again the ball.

Ciao

[Adam]

Originally Posted by eg-italy

From FIBA official rules 2008:

The OP's case is not a violation until the offensive player touches again the ball (FIBA rules). The start of the dribble is when the ball leaves the player's hands, but a travel or an illegal dribble cannot be called until the player touches again the ball.

Ciao

That pretty well sums it up for the OP, then, since it was a FIBA game. I'd like to see the Fed clean up the rule to make it clear like this.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by just another ref

If he is standing all alone, and the ball is bouncing beside him, why not?
Yes, grant the timeout.

I'll make this a little more realistic b/c my last scenario was strictly an unrealistic hypothetical.

A1 all by his lonesome in the backcourt. He lifts his pivot foot to step into a pass for A2 who is 20 ft ahead of him. A1 realizes A2 is not looking so instead voluntarily drops the ball.

Based on your previous posts you are immediately calling a travel, correct?

[Jay R]

I had e-mailed our national interpreter in Canada and his answer corresponds to the vast majority of responses here: no travel until it is touched again by the player.

I kicked it in the game but I will remember it next time.

[Camron Rust]

The actual violation occurs when the ball is released/dropped (releasing the ball on a dribble after lifting the pivot). That is all the rules support. However, whether it is a dribble or not can't be determined until the next person touches the ball....same person, dribble; different person, pass.

[Anchor]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I believe he does. Otherwise it could be interpreted as a pass, and you can legally lift your pivot foot first, and then make a pass. Maybe it's an ugly pass, but it's still a pass.

That would qualify as an understatement.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

A1 goes airborne for a shot, realizing it's about to get eaten by a young Dikembe, he throws the ball towards and empty corner of the court. He then proceeds to follow it, where for a few seconds, he's the only player in reach of the ball. You calling the violation if he doesn't touch it?

Originally Posted by just another ref

In this case, no. Throwing the ball toward an empty corner of the court bears no resemblance to the player simply dropping the ball to the floor.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

How is it different? In both plays, you have a player purposefully putting the ball where only he has the ability to touch it first and no teammate is in the immediate vicinity. How is it different?

The NFHS deems that the player "began a dribble by throwing the ball to the floor." The FED refers to the point when the player who threw the ball grabs it again as the end of the dribble, and clearly notes in the ruling that the player could also have "continued the dribble" "upon reaching the ball." So touching it again would be continuing the dribble, not starting it.
Here's the play ruling:

2003-04 NFHS BASKETBALL RULES INTERPRETATIONS

SITUATION 6: A1 jumps from the floor and secures a defensive re-bound. A1 then pivots toward the sideline where a teammate, A2, is standing for an outlet pass. Just as A1 releases the pass, A2 turns and runs down the court. A1 throws a soft bounce pass to where A2 was standing. A1 then moves and secures the ball without dribbling. RULING: Legal action. A1 had the pivot foot on the floor and began a dribble by throwing the ball to the floor (the bounce pass); the dribble ended when A1 secured the ball. Upon reaching the ball, A1 also could have continued the dribble. (4-15-3,4)

[Adam]

So, Nevada, how would you call this play? Throwing the ball to the floor is obviously not a dribble all the time, so how do you make the determination? By what it looks like? Waiting to see who touches the ball next?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

So, Nevada, how would you call this play? Throwing the ball to the floor is obviously not a dribble all the time, so how do you make the determination? By what it looks like? Waiting to see who touches the ball next?

By using my hard-earned and well-seasoned judgment.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I'll make this a little more realistic b/c my last scenario was strictly an unrealistic hypothetical.

A1 all by his lonesome in the backcourt. He lifts his pivot foot to step into a pass for A2 who is 20 ft ahead of him. A1 realizes A2 is not looking so instead voluntarily drops the ball.

Based on your previous posts you are immediately calling a travel, correct?

Tick-tock.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

The actual violation occurs when the ball is released/dropped (releasing the ball on a dribble after lifting the pivot). That is all the rules support. However, whether it is a dribble or not can't be determined until the next person touches the ball....same person, dribble; different person, pass.

This is my position as well. The violation occurs before we're able to judge that it's a violation. Wait and see the whole play.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

A1 all by his lonesome in the backcourt. He lifts his pivot foot to step into a pass for A2 who is 20 ft ahead of him. A1 realizes A2 is not looking so instead voluntarily drops the ball.

Based on your previous posts you are immediately calling a travel, correct?

If the drop is all part of the original motion, or close enough that one can imagine such, treat it as an errant pass, and see what happens next. If the motion clearly stops, and there is a discernible pause, followed by a deliberate drop straight to the floor, it sounds like the start of a dribble to me, which means that it would be a travel.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by just another ref

If the drop is all part of the original motion, or close enough that one can imagine such, treat it as an errant pass, and see what happens next. If the motion clearly stops, and there is a discernible pause, followed by a deliberate drop straight to the floor, it sounds like the start of a dribble to me, which means that it would be a travel.

Well, if we ever work together let's hope this play only happens once, because it's going to be called differently depending on whose primary it is in.