When does travel occur?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

In this play he has already started his dribble and that 2nd bounce is part of the dribble.

Actually, it isn't. His dribble ended when he touched the ball with two hands. The second bounce is the start of another dribble, which is of course illegal, whether he touches it again after this second bounce or not.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Even though he doesn't touch the ball after the 2nd bounce?
Here's how I read his play:'
1. Bounce with two hands.
2. Catch with two hands.
3. Bounce.
4. Slip.
5. Ball flies away.

No catch. He simply pushed the ball to the floor twice, using both hands both times.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

No catch. He simply pushed the ball to the floor twice, using both hands both times.

Either way, #2 ends his first dribble. Whether he catches it or simply redirects it is irrelevant. I'm still letting it play out if he doesn't touch it after the 2nd bounce. You're not. The odds of it happening once are thin, and even more so that it'll happen twice in a game. They're further reduced when you add the condition that more than one official will get the call in the same game.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

And no way I call a travel without him touching the ball again.

+1....but I'd like to be there when somebody does. And if there's a God, it'll be in a State Final with a ton of experienced witnesses there. That way we can read about it here the next day.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

A1 tries to save the ball under his own basket and tumbles into the bleachers. B gains control and goes the other way. As A1 returns to the court, A2 makes a steal and passes ahead to A1 at the free throw line. A1 turns to take it to the basket. He bounces the ball twice, but he uses both hands for both bounces. About this time he slips on a wet spot and crashes to the floor. He doesn't touch the ball after the second bounce. All other players are still on the other side of the division line. Is this a violation?

No.

Unlike you, I can't read minds. I couldn't be sure that slip might have had something to do with losing control of the ball after the second bounce. I also couldn't be sure that A1 wasn't trying to leave a high bounce for a trailer.

I learned a long time ago to try to call what I can explain. And I don't like 'splainin' that I thought something might have happened. I like to try to call only things that I'm sure of. And because I can't read minds, I'm not 100% sure what A1 was trying to do with the 2-handed second bounce. But hey, that's just me.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I couldn't be sure that slip might have had something to do with losing control of the ball after the second bounce.

How does this relate? What does it mean, even?

I also couldn't be sure that A1 wasn't trying to leave a high bounce for a trailer.

I learned a long time ago to try to call what I can explain.

If you don't call this a violation based on the idea that it might have been a bounce pass to a guy trailing the play, trailing 40 feet behind the play, I'd like to be there to hear that explanation.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

If you don't call this a violation based on the idea that it might have been a bounce pass to a guy trailing the play, trailing 40 feet behind the play, I'd like to be there to hear that explanation.

Want to hear it now?

"No violation because there was a legal first dribble and NO second dribble."

That's what I'd say to anybody who wanted me to call a violation. And I'd like to see anybody in the world(except you) question that. And if they did, I'd direct them to the rulebook definition of both a "fumble" and a "pass".

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

If you don't call this a violation based on the idea that it might have been a bounce pass to a guy trailing the play, trailing 40 feet behind the play, I'd like to be there to hear that explanation.

Simple, "coach, I don't know if it's a dribble until he hits it again."

Frankly, he could have known he was about to slip so he bounced it to leave it for his trailing teammate. Again, if there's any doubt at all, I'm letting play continue. That would be a game interrupter, IMO.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Want to hear it now?

"No violation because there was a legal first dribble and NO second dribble."

That's what I'd say to anybody who wanted me to call a violation. And I'd like to see anybody in the world(except you) question that. And if they did, I'd direct them to the rulebook definition of both a "fumble" and a "pass".

And perhaps he would direct your attention to 4.15.4:

A1.........allows the ball to come to rest in one hand. A1 pushes the ball to the floor in an attempt to continue the dribble.

RULING: When A1 palmed/carried the ball, the dribble ended and when he pushed the ball to the floor a violation occurred.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Again, if there's any doubt at all, I'm letting play continue.

If there's any doubt at all, so am I, but frequently, there is no doubt.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

If there's any doubt at all, so am I, but frequently, there is no doubt.

My point is that I have enough doubt to hold my whistle until it's touched. Your doubt is weaker than mine.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by just another ref

And perhaps he would direct your attention to 4.15.4:

A1.........allows the ball to come to rest in one hand. A1 pushes the ball to the floor in an attempt to continue the dribble.

RULING: When A1 palmed/carried the ball, the dribble ended and when he pushed the ball to the floor a violation occurred.

You seem determined to miss the point.

If A1 dribbles, the dribble starts when he releases the ball. This point is not in question.

If A1 violates by starting a dribble, then the violation occurs when he starts the dribble. This point is not in question.

But you can't know that he's dribbling until he COMPLETES a dribble, i.e., by touching the ball again after it has touched the floor.

You might want to INFER that he's dribbling when he releases the ball. "What else could he be doing?" But we're paid to observe and enforce, not to infer. It's not a violation until it's a violation -- NOT once you have no doubt that it's going to be a violation.

As I said many posts ago, the violation occurs before we're able to judge that it's a violation.

I'm not sure what's at stake for you in this discussion beyond your pride.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

And perhaps he would direct your attention to 4.15.4:

A1.........allows the ball to come to rest in one hand. A1 pushes the ball to the floor in an attempt to continue the dribble.

RULING: When A1 palmed/carried the ball, the dribble ended and when he pushed the ball to the floor a violation occurred.

Yep, that's when the violation occurred, but you don't know it until he touches it; otherwise based on this wording alone you'd have to call a violation when he palms it prior to pushing the ball to the floor for a pass.

[Raymond]

I just don't understand the big rush to call a violation (A1 drops ball instead of releasing shot) when you have rules backing not to.

If he touches it again, violation, if he doesn't, some other player comes along and play continues.

Why the need to jump right in with a whistle on a play that you have rules backing to let proceed?

[just another ref]

Okay, last chapter. If, in my judgment, a player pushes a dribble to the floor which is illegal, the whistle blows when the ball hits the floor. The majority of the time this is simply not that hard to judge. Team A has cleared a side of the court for A1 to work one on one. He palms the ball as he makes a spin move, then pushes it to the floor again. He obviously was going to the basket. This obviously was not a pass. If a player has used his dribble, then forgets and starts to dribble again, then remember when the ball hits the floor, is he allowed to run away from the ball and hope for a teammate to come pick it up. I say no. Finally, in the case of the jumpshooter who is about to have his shot blocked, so he drops the ball before returning to the floor, all he is thinking is "I can't come down with the ball in my hands." This is not a pass, so, by default, it is the start of a dribble, which means it is a travel.

I'm done.