Was this handled correctly?

[BktBallRef]

Looks to me like 2 FTs for the original live ball INT foul, a flagrant T for throwing the player to the floor after the INT foul, which is another 2 FTs. I think those are two different incidents, one live ball, one dead ball. 4 FTs for BV.

I agree 2 FTs for Rio and the ball at the division line.

With that said, I hope I never have this situation. The NFHS rules on fighting and leaving the bench are a clusterf**k.

Chess Ref, I think you said you know the guy in the sleeves. How did all this play out?

[Chess Ref]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Looks to me like 2 FTs for the original live ball INT foul, a flagrant T for throwing the player to the floor after the INT foul, which is another 2 FTs. I think those are two different incidents, one live ball, one dead ball. 4 FTs for BV.

I agree 2 FTs for Rio and the ball at the division line.

With that said, I hope I never have this situation. The NFHS rules on fighting and leaving the bench are a clusterf**k.

Chess Ref, I think you said you know the guy in the sleeves. How did all this play out?

I posted a link to the protest story.They ended up 6 free throws and 2 free throws. I haven't heard specifics.

I haven't called him, he's got alot on his plate right now. But the story will come in in drips and drabs over the next week.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

With that said, I hope I never have this situation. The NFHS rules on fighting and leaving the bench are a clusterf**k.

Thank you. I've never seen this thought, which I share, expressed so succinctly.

[Adam]

1. Flagrant personal on the initial foul, two shots for BV.

2. If the coaches didn't participate, they don't get fouls, IMO. I give them leeway. But if you give them techs for leaving the bench, they need to be flagrant and the coaches need to be ejected. In this case, you'll have two free throws for each coach that left the bench. Two for BV and four for Rio. But the two BV FTs are cancelld by two of Rio's. So, two for Rio and none for BV here.

3. Each player that comes off the bench gets a flagrant T. Since none of them participated, you only shoot two free throws for the team that had the fewest players come off the bench. Each head coach gets 1 indirect (not relevant if they're ejected, too.) Rio gets two more FTs here.

4. Final tally, assuming coaches didn't participate:
BV gets 2 FTs. Rio gets 4 FTs and the ball at the division line.
Head coach from each team gets one indirect T.

5. Final tally assuming coaches did participate:
BV gets 2 FTs, Rio gets 6 FTs. Every coach that came out gets a direct, if they were assistants, the coach gets an indirect for each. In the case of the BV coach, if both coaches that participated were assistants, then the HC would get 3 indirects and also be ejected. Rio still gets the ball.

But it seems to be common for refs to mess up the free throws on these situations.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

1. Flagrant personal on the initial foul, two shots for BV.

I agree.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

2. If the coaches didn't participate, they don't get fouls, IMO. I give them leeway. But if you give them techs for leaving the bench, they need to be flagrant and the coaches need to be ejected. In this case, you'll have two free throws for each coach that left the bench. Two for BV and four for Rio. But the two BV FTs are cancelld by two of Rio's. So, two for Rio and none for BV here.

You are mistaken here because you are including the assistant coach. This incorrectly yields two extra free throws. In a fight situation you only consider the head coaches as a separate category, which would be classified as simultaneous technicals and the FTs would cancel. The assistants are bench personnel and are covered by Penalty 8b. Therefore, the assistant coach leaving the bench gets lumped in with the team members who did the same.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

3. Each player team member that comes off the bench gets a flagrant T. Since none of them participated, you only shoot two free throws for the team that had the fewest players come off the bench. Each head coach gets 1 indirect (not relevant if they're ejected, too.) Rio gets two more FTs here.

I know what you mean, but let's use specific language, especially in this situation. The players are those five for each team who were on the court. Team members are bench personnel. We must be precise here due to the different penalty categories.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

4. Final tally, assuming coaches didn't participate:
BV gets 2 FTs. Rio gets 4 FTs and the ball at the division line.
Head coach from each team gets one indirect T.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

5. Final tally assuming coaches did participate:
BV gets 2 FTs, Rio gets 6 FTs. Every coach that came out gets a direct, if they were assistants, the coach gets an indirect for each. In the case of the BV coach, if both coaches that participated were assistants, then the HC would get 3 indirects and also be ejected. Rio still gets the ball.

It doesn't matter whether the head coaches get penalized or not (other than their own ejections) as their offenses would offset. Therefore, my final tally is the same either way.
BV shoots 2 FTs for the flagrant personal foul, and then Rio shoots two for all of the members of bench personnel from BV who left the bench. Rio then gets the ball at the division line.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

But it seems to be common for refs to mess up the free throws on these situations.

I guess that applies to you too!

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

It doesn't matter whether the head coaches get penalized or not (other than their own ejections) as their offenses would offset. Therefore, my final tally is the same either way.
BV shoots 2 FTs for the flagrant personal foul, and then Rio shoots two for all of the members of bench personnel from BV who left the bench. Rio then gets the ball at the division line.

I think it does matter, because I'm not penalizing the assistants unless they participate. If the two coaches from BV and one coach from Rio all participate enough to earn the flagrant T, then there will be an extra two free throws for Rio.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I guess that applies to you too!

You're right, I confused myself when I wrote all this down by trying to figure out whether or not I'd eject the coaches.

2 and 2 without coach Ts, Rio ball.
With coach Ts (due to my assumption that they participated if they got Ts), it's 2 for BV and 4 for Rio, Rio ball.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I think it does matter, because I'm not penalizing the assistants unless they participate.

I'm not talking about what you would or wouldn't do. I'm talking about what the NFHS rules say to do. If they leave the bench, then the NFHS says that they get penalized. Your state may have a provision to do it differently, I know that mine does, but that doesn't change what the is the proper penalty according to the NFHS rules book.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

If the two coaches from BV and one coach from Rio all participate enough to earn the flagrant T, then there will be an extra two free throws for Rio.

That is correct, but the penalty for those who participate is 2 FTs for each offender.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I'm not talking about what you would or wouldn't do. I'm talking about what the NFHS rules say to do. If they leave the bench, then the NFHS says that they get penalized. Your state may have a provision to do it differently, I know that mine does, but that doesn't change what the is the proper penalty according to the NFHS rules book.

Fair enough.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

That is correct, but the penalty for those who participate is 2 FTs for each offender.

Do they not cancel out like double Ts?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Do they not cancel out like double Ts?

We've debated that point on here in the past. The NFHS isn't clear about it.

Most of us think fighters can cancel with fighters even though some of them were players and some were bench personnel.

Fighting is one of the situations that I've asked the NFHS committee to clarify for next season.

For example: 3 players from Team A fight with 2 players from Team B. 2 members of Team A come off the bench and fight while 4 members of Team B come off the bench and fight. In addition, 3 other individuals of Team A bench personnel leave the bench (two team members and an asst coach) and 1 other team member of Team A comes onto the floor just to observe.
How does it shake out?

PS
For a situation in which both HCs leave the bench and the asst coach for one of the teams does as well, and all three of these individuals participate in the fight, then the penalties for the HCs would offset.

[mbyron]

I would simply like to add that I agree with Snaq about giving coaches leeway on whether they have "left the bench area." The limit of the leeway is the determination of how far they come and whether they are helping or hindering me.