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  #46 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 08, 2006, 10:33pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomegun
If I miss enough calls that are "game saving", let me miss them and get fired!

This is what I say and have said in the past, "You're not getting any of my check so you might as well let me call my area."

Your right! your partners aren't getting any of your check. What if your missed calls, if any, weren't picked up by your partners and the game your on goes south or better yet the film gets to your college supervisor or the film gets passed around the high school coach's. You may not care about what happen's to you but what about what happens to your partners? Because you one of those officials who says, "stay out of my area!"

What is most important to you? You, your check, yoour partners, or the game? The best officials or I should say the best R's are the officials who make the crew better without sacrificing their partners.
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  #47 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 08, 2006, 10:46pm
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Once again, everything being argued is what gets pre gamed as shared calls...which hardly fits the subject of this thread...AT&T calls way outside your primary.

In Arizona we still do 2 whistle, so this is an even worse game killer than it would be with 3 officials.

I can tell you from experience, that very, VERY rarely has a partner made a call with me a few feet away where:

1. I didn't see it and it needed to be gotten.

2. That they got it right.

There are times where they saw part of the play and I passed on something that didn't need to be called and they either got that or called a violation on the result of my pass.

Other times they just flat out missed it, and were 100% wrong.

This has nothing to do with ego, it's all about getting it right. If you are ball watching from 30 feet away, you aren't getting a great look and the odds are you'll miss it. If you split focus and pick something up while watching your area, just how good a look did you get? Did you see the play start to finish? Again, chances are you'll get it wrong.

Seeing an elbow to the face is hard to get wrong.

Seeing a shot to the beans is hard to get wrong.

Seeing two handed pushes in the back is hard to get wrong.

Seeing a travel, LGP, movement toward an opponent, a chicken wing, clear out from 30 feet away is EASY to get wrong.
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  #48 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 08, 2006, 10:58pm
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Great points. I just hope that we don't have or keep the mentality that if it's not in my primary then I can't call it. Lets face it none of us is perfect!!! There are very good reasons to get a call that isn't in your primary. None of which I'm talking about are violations. I'm directlt talking about game saving / crew saving calls.
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  #49 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 08, 2006, 11:27pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gimlet25id
Seems like you are solidifing my point. I wasn't justifing that you should call in your partners primary. Thats why I said if you are going to fish make sure it's a whale.
Actually you are missing my point entirely. I never said "NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, EVER, EVER, NEVER" make a call that is outside of your area. We all get screened and if you understand anything about 3 man mechanics, the Center official is very likely going to make a call from time to time outside of their coverage area.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gimlet25id
However are there calls that we just miss that a partner could have gotten or did get he saved the crew? I know that missing calls is just part of the process. You said, "I do not know what ego has to do with any of this. I know when I blow the whistle there is a reason. I know when I do not blow my whistle, there is also a reason." Are you saying that you don't miss calls?
If the official cannot call the game, then they do not need to be there. Also if I go around calling all over the court, I will not be there. I would rather work again then totally throw out mechanics and start doing something that is not in my job. Now you can call that ego, I call that doing my job properly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gimlet25id
We all have some sort of ego to be any good @ this craft. However we also have to understand that there are times that we should thank our partners for saving us and getting a call that the whole arena seen and somehow I had a brainfart and didn't hit the whistle.
I think you are focusing on this ego thing a little too much. Some of us just like to do the job that is asked of us. Ego is secondary. I do not care if someone calls something in my area as long as they are right. If they are totally wrong (which often times they are) then I am really going to be upset because I would hope I would not do that to you. Some of us believe in not ball watching, it has nothing to do with ego.

Peace
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  #50 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 08, 2006, 11:48pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge
Actually you are missing my point entirely. I never said "NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, EVER, EVER, NEVER" make a call that is outside of your area. We all get screened and if you understand anything about 3 man mechanics, the Center official is very likely going to make a call from time to time outside of their coverage area
.

These are the situations I'm referring to. Sometimes Center has the best look @ plays through the paint.



Quote:
If the official cannot call the game, then they do not need to be there. Also if I go around calling all over the court, I will not be there. I would rather work again then totally throw out mechanics and start doing something that is not in my job. Now you can call that ego, I call that doing my job properly.
I don't think I ever said that it's OK for a official to call all over the floor. However are you saying that it not possible for you to miss a call or even make a bad call. Because if your human then I'm sure there are some calls/ no calls that you would like to have back. I'm not talking about if you can do your JOB or not. I referring to the few very help calls that is essential in calling the game. My reference to EGO's came from the earliar post's implying that you should not ever call out of your primary.


Quote:
I think you are focusing on this ego thing a little too much. Some of us just like to do the job that is asked of us. Ego is secondary. I do not care if someone calls something in my area as long as they are right. If they are totally wrong (which often times they are) then I am really going to be upset because I would hope I would not do that to you. Some of us believe in not ball watching, it has nothing to do with ego.
Peace
All in all I believe we are on the same page. Not sure I look @ this a job. It's more of a advocation. I like the big games, pressure, being apart of the game. The money is just the icing on the cake. To do what we do and to be any good @ it requires some qualities that aren't found in most people. Some of that is defined as a stronger EGO then others.

Last edited by Gimlet25id; Wed Nov 08, 2006 at 11:50pm.
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  #51 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 08, 2006, 11:51pm
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I let this one go for a while, and it was nice to see someone agrees with me on some of the points.

Why do you guys that believe this, think that mechanics is what makes the officials able to do their jobs? I understand not ball watching - I watch off the ball quite a bit, looking for those competitive matchups, etc. But there are a lot of times when 1) you don't have anything to watch in your area (if it's not that competitive of a game, or the players are playing nice), and 2) you really DO need to know what is going on globally (as the phrase was used earlier in the thread). So therefore, you are going to extend your view outside your primary area. It does say "primary", not "ONLY", or "RESTRICTED". Primary means first - first area of responsibility, not ONLY area of responsibility.

The rules... as they are written, and govern the game... do NOT say anything about one official having authority extending over part of the court and only part of the court. They do not restrict calls to one specific area for one official. They do define slight differences in responsibility for R's and U's, but very slight ones. As an official, I (and my partner) have the right to call anything anywhere on the court. (Consider - the coaches feel they have the right to complain about anything anywhere on the court... heh - but we have the right by rule to call anything anywhere on the court)

I do not understand how a set of arbitrary mechanics can restrict what, by rule, we are allowed to do. I have used the word "arbitrary" multiple times in reference to these mechanics. Someone somewhere decided this is what they wanted us to do. The rules are decided and voted on by a committee. What about mechanics? Same people? Or just some people who want the game called a certain way.

And I also have a problem with some responses... "Call whatever you want - just don't work with me" - "Go ahead and do whatever you want, see what happens". These kinds of responses don't get to the heart of the matter - they are a knee-jerk response by people who have run out of responses beyond "That's just the way it is".

Mechanics are supposed to help us officiate the game. They are not supposed to put us in a position where one official is looked down upon, berated, complained about, or denegrated in any way for calling something they have every right by rule to call, but their partner just doesn't want them calling. In most cases, I have found, the newer officials are more of my opinion "Get the call right - help me out when you feel I need it", and the older officals are the ones whose egos (to use a term brought up a few messages ago) have grown to the point that it becomes "My call, right or wrong - don't you DARE reach into my area".

The comment about the check gets me too... since you don't get paid by call, or by size or area of responsibility, you get paid, as a pair, to officiate the game. Sometimes one official calls more/less than the other - as long as they are consistent within the game, and it is a fair contest, there is nothing for anyone to complain about. Otherwise, in some games, I should get a larger check than my partner, because they don't do anything, and in some, I should get the smaller check, because my partner runs the show completely. This is ludicurous - saying "I get paid my fee, so let me do my area" - by rule, both officials are responsible for the GAME - not for specific areas of the court (except for the slight R and U differences mentioned above).

I can't expect to change the system. I can't even expect to get some of the people who believe mechanics are the be-all and end-all of basketball to rethink that absolute belief that the mechanics they have been taught are always right. All I expect to do is bring to light that some people disagree with the belief that your primary area is to be your only area, and that no basketball official could possibly be wrong in their call in their primary area. "My call, right or wrong" is a bad attitude to have ANYWHERE on the court.

I would hope people would at least agree that getting the calls right SHOULD be the highest goal of any official. Sticking to primary coverage and current mechanics may help - but also may in some cases hinder - this goal.
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  #52 (permalink)  
Old Thu Nov 09, 2006, 12:09am
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Quote:
Why do you guys that believe this, think that mechanics is what makes the officials able to do their jobs? I understand not ball watching
-
Don't get me wrong. I believe in the mechanics. They are essential in officiating the game. However they are just a guideline to be in the right area looking at the right things to put you in the best possible position to make the correct call. They don't mean that you can never, never come out of your primary to make a call. I do agree with some of what was said earliar that most calls made out of primary areas are more wrong then right. Especially with newer officials. I don't agree with the philosphy that you stay in your area and I will stay in mine. That is the type of personality or EGO if you will, that destroy's what the mechanics manual is trying to accomplish.

Quote:
I watch off the ball quite a bit, looking for those competitive matchups, etc. But there are a lot of times when 1) you don't have anything to watch in your area (if it's not that competitive of a game, or the players are playing nice), and 2) you really DO need to know what is going on globally (as the phrase was used earlier in the thread). So therefore, you are going to extend your view outside your primary area. It does say "primary", not "ONLY", or "RESTRICTED". Primary means first - first area of responsibility, not ONLY area of responsibility.
If you don't have anything to officiate in your primary then you are suppossed to exyend to your secondary. This is taught @ every college officiating camp that I've attended over the years. It's not a license to make arbitrary calls on top of your partners.

Quote:
I do not understand how a set of arbitrary mechanics can restrict what, by rule, we are allowed to do. I have used the word "arbitrary" multiple times in reference to these mechanics. Someone somewhere decided this is what they wanted us to do.
They aren't. They are just guidelines that for the most part work really well.


Quote:
The comment about the check gets me too...
This si why you want to make sure you officate with partners who look @ the game similar to the way you look @ it.
Quote:
I can't expect to change the system. I can't even expect to get some of the people who believe mechanics are the be-all and end-all of basketball to rethink that absolute belief that the mechanics they have been taught are always right. All I expect to do is bring to light that some people disagree with the belief that your primary area is to be your only area, and that no basketball official could possibly be wrong in their call in their primary area. "My call, right or wrong" is a bad attitude to have ANYWHERE on the court.
THe higher level you officiate the more you will find out that is not the case. Most of the time in pre games it will be discussed that if there is a call that everyone sees but me, "please come in and get it!" It will save the crew. These are few and far in between. But when it happens and it will ,most partners want partners who will be there to step up and make the tough call out of your primary.
Quote:
I would hope people would at least agree that getting the calls right SHOULD be the highest goal of any official.
LETS GET THE PLAY RIGHT!!!!
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  #53 (permalink)  
Old Thu Nov 09, 2006, 12:10am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

"If the official cannot call the game, then they do not need to be there. Also if I go around calling all over the court, I will not be there. I would rather work again then totally throw out mechanics and start doing something that is not in my job. Now you can call that ego, I call that doing my job properly."

I don't think I ever said that it's OK for a official to call all over the floor. However are you saying that it not possible for you to miss a call or even make a bad call. Because if your human then I'm sure there are some calls/ no calls that you would like to have back. I'm not talking about if you can do your JOB or not. I referring to the few very help calls that is essential in calling the game. My reference to EGO's came from the earliar post's implying that you should not ever call out of your primary.
Where did I say I would not make a mistake? The last time I checked, officials are human. I have yet to call a perfect game and I have yet to watch a perfectly officiated game. I have also never seen a game saved because someone called a minor foul or violation from across the court. If anything it is your ego that thinks you can save a game by making these kinds of calls if you ask me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gimlet25id
All in all I believe we are on the same page. Not sure I look @ this a job. It's more of a advocation. I like the big games, pressure, being apart of the game. The money is just the icing on the cake. To do what we do and to be any good @ it requires some qualities that aren't found in most people. Some of that is defined as a stronger EGO then others.
Anytime you are getting paid to do something, it is a job. If it is not a job, do not take any money for it. Do not file taxes for it. Then tell me how much of a job it is not when the IRS comes calling. You also missed my point about when I said job. We are all out their doing something we were assigned to do. If you feel you are going to save a crew because you are ball watching, then do that. I do not have to work with you. It is not me that is going to tell the assignor they do not want to work with you. It is also funny that when I hear these "we have to call everything in the game" people, it is never at a camp, it is never an official that is at the high levels and you cannot find any philsophy that reflects this in the mechanics or rules literature.

Peace
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  #54 (permalink)  
Old Thu Nov 09, 2006, 12:26am
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I have also never seen a game saved because someone called a minor foul or violation from across the court. If anything it is your ego that thinks you can save a game by making these kinds of calls if you ask me.
How we got this far of course I don't know. You taking what I'm saying out of context. If you read my posts you will find that I'm not referring to minor fouls or any violations. I'm talking about the big GIANT no brianer calls that everyone knows there has to be a whistle. These are very few and far in between. However I raised that point to the posts that suggest that you never can come out of your primary.


.
Quote:
If you feel you are going to save a crew because you are ball watching, then do that. I do not have to work with you.
C'mon. Nobody is talking about ball watching. You act like you can't possibly ever see the ball while it's not in your primary. What if you don't have anything in your primary? Can your secondary extend into your partners primary?

Quote:
It is also funny that when I hear these "we have to call everything in the game" people, it is never at a camp, it is never an official that is at the high levels and you cannot find any philsophy that reflects this in the mechanics or rules literature.
Well I don't know who you talk to or what camps you attend. The camps I attend and the level I work @ this is a philosphy that we officiate by. Nobody ever said that we have to call evreything. You need to take some time and read the previous posts. As far as manuals, try taking a look @ the CCA manuals. These will cover primary and secondary areas in depth.
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Old Thu Nov 09, 2006, 12:27am
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We need to stop talking in generalities, let us get to the bottom line.

I have a few questions for you guys to clarify your position.

1. You are the Lead Official and your partner is watching the ball handler. The ball handler "carries" the ball about near the division line. Do you call this as the Lead official?

2. You are the trail official and the ball goes out right in front of the Lead official, do you blow the whistle and signal as the trail official?

3. There is a throw-in and your partner is administering the throw-in. The thrower moves a little to the side and in your opinion the player violated the designated spot; do you call the violation that your partner missed?

Are these game saving calls?

Peace
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  #56 (permalink)  
Old Thu Nov 09, 2006, 12:27am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge
Anytime you are getting paid to do something, it is a job. If it is not a job, do not take any money for it. Do not file taxes for it. Then tell me how much of a job it is not when the IRS comes calling. You also missed my point about when I said job. We are all out their doing something we were assigned to do. If you feel you are going to save a crew because you are ball watching, then do that. I do not have to work with you. It is not me that is going to tell the assignor they do not want to work with you. It is also funny that when I hear these "we have to call everything in the game" people, it is never at a camp, it is never an official that is at the high levels and you cannot find any philsophy that reflects this in the mechanics or rules literature.

Peace
Two problems:

Getting paid for something does not make it a job. I am a volunteer fireman, and have been one for 16+ years. No money for anything there, which makes it less than a job because no money changes hands? I don't think so.

Also, I never said to call everything in a game. However, why do we have rules, if they are not there to be administered? They didn't make the rule and say "When traveling occurs, only call it 2/3 of the time, or when you personally feel it will advance the quality of the game". It says "When traveling occurs, here's the penalty".

I find it funny that listening to our rules interpreter, he is giving us the information by the book. The officials still go out and call whatever they feel like or want to under the circumstances of the game. Why go over the rules by the book, if officials aren't supposed to follow it?

I can find the "Call everything by the rules" stated very clearly - in the rules, as the rules - here's the foul/violation, here's what you're supposed to call. Nowhere in there does it say "Call what you want when you want, and ignore the rest whenever you want."
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  #57 (permalink)  
Old Thu Nov 09, 2006, 12:32am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge
We need to stop talking in generalities, let us get to the bottom line.

I have a few questions for you guys to clarify your position.

1. You are the Lead Official and your partner is watching the ball handler. The ball handler "carries" the ball about near the division line. Do you call this as the Lead official?

2. You are the trail official and the ball goes out right in front of the Lead official, do you blow the whistle and signal as the trail official?

3. There is a throw-in and your partner is administering the throw-in. The thrower moves a little to the side and in your opinion the player violated the designated spot; do you call the violation that your partner missed?

Are these game saving calls?

Peace
I would not be likely to call any of these. 1) Carrying is very subjective, and in your example, that is pretty far away. Now, if they clearly carried, and my partner is back at the other endline, chatting with a coach, maybe I would call it. 2) No, but I might help out on a tip indicating a change in direction if I clearly saw the tip. 3) Not likely to call under any circumstances. Now, if I saw the player clearly step onto the court by more than just a little, and my partner was watching a very competitive matchup in front of him, ignoring the thrower-in, I might call it if the player gained a major advantage from it, but still unlikely.

Are they game saving calls? You have to define this. If you mean game-changing, absolutely under the right circumstances. A screwed up throw-in by a team down 2 points with several seconds left would take away their chance to win. Should we get the call right, or should we ignore the violation in favor of letting them get the chance? I vote for the first option - always - get the call right.

But what about:

1) A clear foul away from the ball, outside my area, because my partner was watching the ball (like he was supposed to) in his area?

2) A clear violation (3 step travel, etc) outside my area, when my partner was obviously distracted by some off-ball heavy physical play in his area?

And, as I have been presuming in all cases (and has been brought up contrary to this) - in all cases, I am assuming the foul or violation call is CORRECT - you have been presuming because your statistics show that often calls outside your area are wrong, any call outside the primary must be wrong. I am saying that, under further review, after checking the video and consulting with numerous witnesseses, the call is CORRECT - the foul/violation occurred as viewed by the off-primary person. Answer with this in mind.
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Last edited by drinkeii; Thu Nov 09, 2006 at 12:35am.
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  #58 (permalink)  
Old Thu Nov 09, 2006, 12:35am
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1. You are the Lead Official and your partner is watching the ball handler. The ball handler "carries" the ball about near the division line. Do you call this as the Lead official?
NO!!!!!

Quote:
2. You are the trail official and the ball goes out right in front of the Lead official, do you blow the whistle and signal as the trail official?
NO! Unless your partner doesn't blow his whistle. 99.9% of the time you wouldn't have a whistle. You could give help info if needed. Lead might have been officiating a match up in the paint and the ball might have went out behind him/her. Trail more then likley would be referring this play, but would wait for L to have a whistle and then give help if needed.

Quote:
3. There is a throw-in and your partner is administering the throw-in. The thrower moves a little to the side and in your opinion the player violated the designated spot; do you call the violation that your partner missed?
NO!! If you did then you would be ball watching.
Quote:
Are these game saving calls?
Not ever unless it was a tie ball game and lead was about to give the ball to the wrong team with a few seconds left in the game. But generally no they aren't game savers.

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Old Thu Nov 09, 2006, 12:53am
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Originally Posted by Gimlet25id
How we got this far of course I don't know. You taking what I'm saying out of context. If you read my posts you will find that I'm not referring to minor fouls or any violations. I'm talking about the big GIANT no brianer calls that everyone knows there has to be a whistle. These are very few and far in between. However I raised that point to the posts that suggest that you never can come out of your primary.
Well if you are talking about no-brainer calls, you sure do not know how to admit that. Also remember what is considered a "no-brainer" call is very subjective.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gimlet25id
C'mon. Nobody is talking about ball watching. You act like you can't possibly ever see the ball while it's not in your primary. What if you don't have anything in your primary? Can your secondary extend into your partners primary?
I work a lot of 3 man mechanics. There is a lot to watch when you have 3 officials working the game. Most of the time I am officiating I am never watching anything that goes on in my partner's area. Of course there are dual areas or I see one part of the play and my partner sees another part, but I definitely am not watching for a long period of time in my partners area. Many times if I see something in my partner's area, I did not see the entire play.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gimlet25id
Well I don't know who you talk to or what camps you attend. The camps I attend and the level I work @ this is a philosphy that we officiate by. Nobody ever said that we have to call evreything. You need to take some time and read the previous posts. As far as manuals, try taking a look @ the CCA manuals. These will cover primary and secondary areas in depth.
I went to a pretty big time camp this summer for the first time. I have been to other D1 camps but this is one I attended was had people all over the country, not just a region. I got ripped apart for making a call as the trail official deep into the lead's coverage area. The evaluator asked my partner what did he see on the call. He responded that he had nothing that he thought warranted a foul. Now at the time I was confident that my call was the right call, until during the evaluation process. Now whether I thought I was right or not, really does not matter. The point is that it was seen by the people that observed as the wrong call. What I think does not matter. And it was said over and over again at this camp about trusting your partner and working as a team. I was not the only person that was made an example of as it related to this kind of situation, but that does not fit the point of view you are spouting off on this site. I guess this is why some officials get picked up and others never get picked up. You live and learn.

Peace
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  #60 (permalink)  
Old Thu Nov 09, 2006, 01:00am
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Originally Posted by tomegun
You can ask anyone here; you definitely have me wrong about that one! I don't even know who you got that globally stuff from. Thanks for the laugh!
Yep, I did. For some reason I remembered you as having made that observation. I was wrong. After some searching I discovered that it was actually zebraman who said: "referee locally and be aware globally" My apologies.
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