Coverage Areas

[drinkeii]

I have found that it is interesting that in comparing the two running sports I do (Soccer and Basketball), soccer has a much less defined division between what each partner is supposed to cover for their area. Both officials, most times, appear focussed on the ball, and only if the call is way over by the other official are you supposed to hold your whistle and let them call it.

Basketball, in the 8 years I have done it, seems to be much more focussed on "If it aint in your area, don't call it". I can understand when an official chooses to pass on a call right by them that their partner should let them do so without interfering, but if the partner has obviously (or possibly...) missed a call, you're supposed to pass on this as well... presuming that you are at that time looking outside your area for whatever reason and see it.

I guess my question is - Why? Isn't the primary responsibility of the officials (beyond the issue of safety) to make sure the game is officiated fairly and the rules are administered correctly? If you are consistently focussed on your primary, and happen to see something outside it that a partner could have been screened from, why shouldn't you call it? Just because that is how the mechanics of basketball are set up? Shouldn't we be more concerned with getting the call right between partners than who is calling what where?

I guess I have officiated with the opinion "If I miss something, please catch it". I would rather get it right than worry about who is making the call - many others seem more concerned with license restrictions than necessarily getting the call right... "Don't go fishing in MY pond!"

Opinions?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by drinkeii

I have found that it is interesting that in comparing the two running sports I do (Soccer and Basketball), soccer has a much less defined division between what each partner is supposed to cover for their area. Both officials, most times, appear focussed on the ball, and only if the call is way over by the other official are you supposed to hold your whistle and let them call it.

David,
I don't agree with that statement at all.

That may be the way it is done in your area, but soccer has a very developed coverage scheme for its referees and certainly both (or all three) are NOT supposed to watching the ball at the same time.

There is not an officiating system on the planet that is not based upon the principle of divide and conquer.

[drinkeii]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

David,
I don't agree with that statement at all.

That may be the way it is done in your area, but soccer has a very developed coverage scheme for its referees and certainly both (or all three) are NOT supposed to watching the ball at the same time.

There is not an officiating system on the planet that is not based upon the principle of divide and conquer.

Well, we never discuss it - the closest they ever come to that is "Don't call things in front of your partner". Double whistles are common in our area for soccer - and honestly, I think it is a good thing, because when you have 2 whistles for the same infraction, I can say to the player when they complain "My partner saw it too.", and that often stops the complaining.

We only discuss positioning. I do have to say that I have improved my soccer officiating by looking off ball a lot more when it isn't near me, and also staying with the player who has played the ball longer after the play, like in basketball ("Stay with the shooter") - it seems to catch a lot of late, cheap stuff.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by drinkeii

Well, we never discuss it - the closest they ever come to that is "Don't call things in front of your partner". .

That is unfortunate. There always needs to be one referee watching the players who are behind the play. Look at the example of Zidane's headbutt in the WC Final! Ball watching is bad.

Originally Posted by drinkeii

Double whistles are common in our area for soccer - and honestly, I think it is a good thing, because when you have 2 whistles for the same infraction, I can say to the player when they complain "My partner saw it too.", and that often stops the complaining..

That's will stop the player's complaints sometimes, but so will a stern word or a caution for dissent. Also you should not use this with a smart coach, if you ever get a smart coach, because the reply will be, "Who is watching the rest of the field?" Double whistles are a bad thing. They demonstrate that both of you are watching the same thing. That tells the smart players that they aren't being watched away from the ball and can get away with all kinds of stuff.

Originally Posted by drinkeii

We only discuss positioning. I do have to say that I have improved my soccer officiating by looking off ball a lot more when it isn't near me, and also staying with the player who has played the ball longer after the play, like in basketball ("Stay with the shooter") - it seems to catch a lot of late, cheap stuff.

Good that is the stuff that you should be doing!

[drinkeii]

But also, on the other hand, if a second person is watching where the active play is (which is more likely to be around the ball in soccer, where in basketball, a lot of the active play is away from the ball), you are more likely to catch things where one official is screened from something, and all of the spectators are not.

No perfect answer - except for having a set of officials like football - 7 on the field at a time - don't think we'll ever get that in soccer or basketball... "Here's your Primary Area - make sure you call only in your three square feet of court space!" - Haha

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by drinkeii

But also, on the other hand, if a second person is watching where the active play is (which is more likely to be around the ball in soccer, where in basketball, a lot of the active play is away from the ball), you are more likely to catch things where one official is screened from something, and all of the spectators are not.

That is exactly the purpose of the the DSC. The center and the leading AR always try to box in the play. The center has the primary responsibility for the fouls, but the AR helps and the AR has the primary responsibility for offside and ball out of play, but the center helps. The trailing AR watches the players behind the centers back and away from the immediate area of play. This is why it is a superior system to the dual. In the dual you have to sacrifice something. I would rather sacrifice the one or two missed calls a game that are going to happen when the primary referee gets screened out or just misses the call, than the horrendous elbow/kick/punch behind the play. The game can survive if the first is missed, but not the second. You will have a major incident.

Originally Posted by drinkeii

No perfect answer - except for having a set of officials like football - 7 on the field at a time - don't think we'll ever get that in soccer or basketball... "Here's your Primary Area - make sure you call only in your three square feet of court space!" - Haha

Yes, the more referees is better. That is why FIFA has gone to FOUR and the WC actually had FIVE this time around. In addition to the 4th official between the benches, there was a spare AR lurking around.
The NFHS needs to come out of the dark ages and ban the dual system. Make three the minimum.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by drinkeii

I I guess my question is - Why? Isn't the primary responsibility of the officials (beyond the issue of safety) to make sure the game is officiated fairly and the rules are administered correctly? If you are consistently focussed on your primary, and happen to see something outside it that a partner could have been screened from, why shouldn't you call it? Just because that is how the mechanics of basketball are set up? Shouldn't we be more concerned with getting the call right between partners than who is calling what where?

There are two extremes: "Call what you see, no matter where" and "Only call in your area." Both are, imo, wrong.

According to some studies, a large percentage of calls made outside your area are wrong.

Conversely, you don't want to pass on an "OMG" call just because it wasn't in your area.

The key is knowing when to go get something, and when to let it go.

[drinkeii]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

There are two extremes: "Call what you see, no matter where" and "Only call in your area." Both are, imo, wrong.

According to some studies, a large percentage of calls made outside your area are wrong.

Conversely, you don't want to pass on an "OMG" call just because it wasn't in your area.

The key is knowing when to go get something, and when to let it go.

I'd be interested to see these "studies" - never heard anything like that before.

Problem is, with your last statement, that most guys I work with are of the "My Call, RIGHT OR WRONG" attitude - if I choose not to call it, or missed it, you don't have a right to call it in my area.

Interestingly enough - the rules state that each official has the authority to make calls. The rules DON'T state anything about where they can make calls on the floor. The case book doesn't address the issue either. So the rules of the game don't prohibit these calls. The mechanics of officiating the sport is where we find this, not in the actual rules of the sport.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by drinkeii

I'd be interested to see these "studies" - never heard anything like that before.

Problem is, with your last statement, that most guys I work with are of the "My Call, RIGHT OR WRONG" attitude - if I choose not to call it, or missed it, you don't have a right to call it in my area.

Interestingly enough - the rules state that each official has the authority to make calls. The rules DON'T state anything about where they can make calls on the floor. The case book doesn't address the issue either. So the rules of the game don't prohibit these calls. The mechanics of officiating the sport is where we find this, not in the actual rules of the sport.

It's the NBA's study of their own officials. More like a report card, if you will. In grading the officials, they did a statistical analysis of the calls made in and out of a given official's primary area. They determined that calls made out of your area (in your partner's pond) were far more likely to be wrong than calls in your own primary.

Think about this next time your partner goes fishing in your pond and calls something that didn't happen (phantom fouls, travels, and double dribbles.) Ego isn't want should keep you in your primary; the desire to get the call right should do that. That doesn't mean there won't be some plays where you won't have to do it; but you should be willing to stake money that your call is right before you make it.

[drinkeii]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

It's the NBA's study of their own officials. More like a report card, if you will. In grading the officials, they did a statistical analysis of the calls made in and out of a given official's primary area. They determined that calls made out of your area (in your partner's pond) were far more likely to be wrong than calls in your own primary.

Think about this next time your partner goes fishing in your pond and calls something that didn't happen (phantom fouls, travels, and double dribbles.) Ego isn't want should keep you in your primary; the desire to get the call right should do that. That doesn't mean there won't be some plays where you won't have to do it; but you should be willing to stake money that your call is right before you make it.

Do you have a link to this study? Also, does the study consider the fact that in the NBA, officials are not calling a game for anything other than entertaining the fans - the number of obvious "minor" things that are ignored for the sake of allowing the game to flow is pretty significant. I would be more likely to believe a study by college leagues than the NBA.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by drinkeii

Do you have a link to this study? Also, does the study consider the fact that in the NBA, officials are not calling a game for anything other than entertaining the fans - the number of obvious "minor" things that are ignored for the sake of allowing the game to flow is pretty significant. I would be more likely to believe a study by college leagues than the NBA.

First of all the NBA can come up with any rules and philosophies that they like. It is a league unto itself, no different than any other pro league. I do not see where you are going with that one. NCAA players are not as talented as NBA players and you cannot have the exact same ways to call a game as you do with the NBA.

Secondly, if you do not have coverage areas, you will have people calling all kinds of things that are not in position to call. Forget coverage areas, what about something as simple as an out of bounds call. Do you think a person across the court is in a better position to a toe on the line? There is a reason there are 2 or 3 of you out there.

Peace

[Gimlet25id]

It amazes me that often times we get so concerned with who's call it is /isn't that we lose focus of what really matters. THE GAME.

First of all I'm not saying that if we see it then we need to call it if our partner isn't. First I would ask why are we seeing the supposed missed call by our partner. Thats not to say that in Dual coverage area's that we can't see the same play and give the primary a chance. If he/she doesn't get it then get it, if it has to be gotten.

In fact this is a great area of discussion in your pre game. We can't be so concerned with our EGO's that we lose sight of the objective...to officiate the game as fairly and consistently as possible for both teams. In my neck of the woods we pre game, "If it's on tape lets get the play right." That is also true even if it's not on tape. Lets just make sure if we are going to fish in someone else's pond that we catch a whale not a fish.

LETS GET THE PLAY RIGHT!

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

It amazes me that often times we get so concerned with who's call it is /isn't that we lose focus of what really matters. THE GAME.

LETS GET THE PLAY RIGHT!

You can say "the game" is the most important thing, but what does that mean?

If you are making a lot of calls that were not there, is that not hurting the game? If you are watching the ball and you miss all the things that are in your area, are you not hurting the game?

If your partner is standing 6 feet away from a play and you are 20 feet away and he passes on something he is closer to the play, and you see part of the play and make a call, if you ask me that is not getting the call right or helping the game. I do not know what ego has to do with any of this. I know when I blow the whistle there is a reason. I know when I do not blow my whistle, there is also a reason. I do not need help from someone when I know why I do things. If you do not want to work with me, that is OK. But I get paid the same money you do and give me a chance to call the game properly or we should not work together anymore. Then I will likely get fired if I cannot do the job. It is not as complicated as you are making it. There is a reason why some guys get opportunities and other guys sit at home on a regular basis.

Peace

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You can say "the game" is the most important thing, but what does that mean?

If you are making a lot of calls that were not there, is that not hurting the game? If you are watching the ball and you miss all the things that are in your area, are you not hurting the game?

If your partner is standing 6 feet away from a play and you are 20 feet away and he passes on something he is closer to the play, and you see part of the play and make a call, if you ask me that is not getting the call right or helping the game. I do not know what ego has to do with any of this. I know when I blow the whistle there is a reason. I know when I do not blow my whistle, there is also a reason. I do not need help from someone when I know why I do things. If you do not want to work with me, that is OK. But I get paid the same money you do and give me a chance to call the game properly or we should not work together anymore. Then I will likely get fired if I cannot do the job. It is not as complicated as you are making it. There is a reason why some guys get opportunities and other guys sit at home on a regular basis.

Peace

Seems like you are solidifing my point. I wasn't justifing that you should call in your partners primary. Thats why I said if you are going to fish make sure it's a whale.

However are there calls that we just miss that a partner could have gotten or did get he saved the crew? I know that missing calls is just part of the process. You said, "I do not know what ego has to do with any of this. I know when I blow the whistle there is a reason. I know when I do not blow my whistle, there is also a reason." Are you saying that you don't miss calls?

We all have some sort of ego to be any good @ this craft. However we also have to understand that there are times that we should thank our partners for saving us and getting a call that the whole arena seen and somehow I had a brainfart and didn't hit the whistle.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

Seems like you are solidifing my point. I wasn't justifing that you should call in your partners primary. Thats why I said if you are going to fish make sure it's a whale.

Actually you are missing my point entirely. I never said "NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, EVER, EVER, NEVER" make a call that is outside of your area. We all get screened and if you understand anything about 3 man mechanics, the Center official is very likely going to make a call from time to time outside of their coverage area.

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

However are there calls that we just miss that a partner could have gotten or did get he saved the crew? I know that missing calls is just part of the process. You said, "I do not know what ego has to do with any of this. I know when I blow the whistle there is a reason. I know when I do not blow my whistle, there is also a reason." Are you saying that you don't miss calls?

If the official cannot call the game, then they do not need to be there. Also if I go around calling all over the court, I will not be there. I would rather work again then totally throw out mechanics and start doing something that is not in my job. Now you can call that ego, I call that doing my job properly.

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

We all have some sort of ego to be any good @ this craft. However we also have to understand that there are times that we should thank our partners for saving us and getting a call that the whole arena seen and somehow I had a brainfart and didn't hit the whistle.

I think you are focusing on this ego thing a little too much. Some of us just like to do the job that is asked of us. Ego is secondary. I do not care if someone calls something in my area as long as they are right. If they are totally wrong (which often times they are) then I am really going to be upset because I would hope I would not do that to you. Some of us believe in not ball watching, it has nothing to do with ego.

Peace