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  #31 (permalink)  
Old Sun May 07, 2006, 11:45pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dribble
JRut, I think the fact that there isn't a mechanic for a flagrant foul doesn't mean that you can "call" it anything you want. In fact, to signal it with the intentional foul signal is incorrect unless at that moment you were going to assess an intentional foul rather than the flagrant. My understanding for reporting a flagrant foul is that you signal a foul with your fist and report the flagrant to the table, which leads to the ejection of the player.
I know a couple college-level officials who have advised to come out with crossed-armed initially if you think you may be ruling a personal foul as flagrant. Their reasoning being that in the case of most flagrant personal fouls the foul will be intentional in nature and you'll have a few moments to process the information in your head and decide between intentional and flagrant before reporting. The "few moments" being the time you are staying with players to ensure nothing further happens.

I've never had occassion to call a flagrant foul so I don't know what my natural reaction would be mechanic-wise.
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old Sun May 07, 2006, 11:52pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef
I've never had occassion to call a flagrant foul so I don't know what my natural reaction would be mechanic-wise.
That is why I came out with the intentional foul signal. I did not know what else to do or how to react. I was caught so off guard by what the player did, it was in fact very intentional, but I did not know what to signal with that kind of foul.

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  #33 (permalink)  
Old Tue May 09, 2006, 12:16am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge
So what you are saying is that we have to call it exactly as the rulebook says or we cannot apply the rule properly? Interesting concept, I will have to remember that next time.

Which is it? Do the coaches know the difference or do they care if you apply the rules properly?

Also I know there is no such thing as an "Intentional flagrant foul." That is what the rulebook is for, so you can look these things up. All fouls are either Personal or Technical. Find out the difference and apply the rules properly. I have called a false double foul and I never used the term "false double foul" as the explanation. People here double foul they think all double fouls are the same. If it floats your boat, call it what you like.
If you look back at all my posts you'll see that I've always advocated calling the game with the intent of the rules, but when that falls in line with the book, then I defer to the book. Simple as that. Does it add to the game if you signal an intentional foul for a flagrant? Not really because those who know (i.e. other officials, evaluators, and maybe coaches and players) will wonder why you then ejected the player. I'll think you changed your call. If I'm evaluating and I you call an intentional foul, but then find out by the PA announcer that the player is tossed, then I'm going to ask you about it differently than if you simply called a flagrant foul at the table.

You're using semantics to justify your response, but as Chuck says, let's not belabor the point.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old Tue May 09, 2006, 08:02am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dribble
If you look back at all my posts you'll see that I've always advocated calling the game with the intent of the rules, but when that falls in line with the book, then I defer to the book. Simple as that. Does it add to the game if you signal an intentional foul for a flagrant? Not really because those who know (i.e. other officials, evaluators, and maybe coaches and players) will wonder why you then ejected the player. I'll think you changed your call. If I'm evaluating and I you call an intentional foul, but then find out by the PA announcer that the player is tossed, then I'm going to ask you about it differently than if you simply called a flagrant foul at the table.

You're using semantics to justify your response, but as Chuck says, let's not belabor the point.
Not sure exactly how to word this question so bear with me.

Are flagrant personal fouls always an instantaneous decision in the mind of the official? Meaning should an official know the instant that he blows his whistle that he has a flagrant personal foul as opposed to having just a intentional/hard foul?

What if you come up with just a fist b/c your immediate instinct was flagrant but then after processing all the info in your head (or getting some info from a partner) you then decide you're just going with an intentional? You would then have to explain why you came with a fist and then reported an intentional, right?

Haven't there been times in your career when you came with a fist for a common foul but then changed to an intentional?

IMO, I don't thinks it's that big a deal if for some reason you initially came with crossed-arms. If you end up ruling it a flagrant personal, coaches aren't going to wonder why you ejected his player b/c you will be explaining to the coach as soon as you get done reporting to the table. And in the JuCo conference for which I work, my supervisor (veteran Final-Four official) doesn't want any flagrant fouls reported to the table until you have gone to at least one of your partners first, so the other officials won't be wondering either, they will know b/c you told them.

As far as the evaluator, I would think he would be more concerned that you got the call right (flagrant v. intentional) and getting your version of what you saw on the play.
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Last edited by Raymond; Tue May 09, 2006 at 08:05am.
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old Tue May 09, 2006, 09:48am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

IMO, I don't thinks it's that big a deal if for some reason you initially came with crossed-arms.
Didn't you just signal the wrong call? And if you knew that you were gonna toss the player as soon as you made the call, why make the wrong signal in the first place?

You obviously know the difference between an intentional foul and a flagrant foul, but you still went ahead and did it wrong. As you said, any doubt, you coulda just signalled a foul with a fist, and then made up your mind as to the kind. T'other way don't make sense at all to me.

Btw, evaluators surely do wanna see you get the call right. They also wanna see you use the proper procedures while getting the call right, with no indecisivness involved.

I'm with Dribble. Use the correct signal.

Last edited by Jurassic Referee; Tue May 09, 2006 at 09:50am.
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old Tue May 09, 2006, 09:52am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dribble
If you look back at all my posts you'll see that I've always advocated calling the game with the intent of the rules, but when that falls in line with the book, then I defer to the book. Simple as that. Does it add to the game if you signal an intentional foul for a flagrant? Not really because those who know (i.e. other officials, evaluators, and maybe coaches and players) will wonder why you then ejected the player. I'll think you changed your call. If I'm evaluating and I you call an intentional foul, but then find out by the PA announcer that the player is tossed, then I'm going to ask you about it differently than if you simply called a flagrant foul at the table.
We need to make something clear; I do not work for you. So either way it goes what you think about this is not going to change the confusion that I am many have had over this issue.

I have never advocating doing something specific, I just said I had never experienced such a call and did not know what to do. Also the NF does not give much guidance as to what to do or how to make this call. Also when I made the call not one person had a problem with the signal, the call or the way I reported the foul. There were no coaches complaining about the signal and what it meant. NOT ONE PERSON said a word or questioned or was at all confused about what I called or why I made the call. The only person that seemed to have a problem with the sequence was me. The first thing I did was ask around and I got so many answers and opinions.

I also think one of the reasons no one had a problem, there is no acceptable sequence in writing anywhere at least with the NF and NCAA. If I took your opinion to people that I worked for, you have no credibility with them to change their opinion or to validate why the feel the way they do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dribble
You're using semantics to justify your response, but as Chuck says, let's not belabor the point.
I do not know what you claim I am trying to justify. I think you are reading too much into this conversation and what it meant. Oh well, this would not be the first time.

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  #37 (permalink)  
Old Tue May 09, 2006, 10:20am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
Didn't you just signal the wrong call? And if you knew that you were gonna toss the player as soon as you made the call, why make the wrong signal in the first place?
JR, that was one of the questions I was asking. In your experiences did you know immediately that you had a flagrant? I've never had one and was wondering what everyone's initial reaction was when they have called it in the past?
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old Tue May 09, 2006, 11:53am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef
JR, that was one of the questions I was asking. In your experiences did you know immediately that you had a flagrant?
I've had only one and knew immediately it was flagrant b/c it was a punch to the back of an opponent's head. No X, just a fist and a heave-ho.
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old Tue May 09, 2006, 12:00pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef
JR, that was one of the questions I was asking. In your experiences did you know immediately that you had a flagrant? I've never had one and was wondering what everyone's initial reaction was when they have called it in the past?
Yup, I've tossed a few, and I knew immediately on most of them that they shoulda gone. On a couple, I did think about it quickly before tossing 'em. Any doubt at all, I wouldn't have called the flagrant.

I certainly can agree with delaying any final signal for a second or two- to make sure in your own mind that you really should toss the player. I can't agree with the college-level officials that advised you to come out initially with the intentional foul signal though. I think their reasoning is faulty. The plain ol' raised fist initially is good enough- you can then make up your mind if anything further is needed- i.e. intentional or flagrant.
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old Tue May 09, 2006, 12:11pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef
JR, that was one of the questions I was asking. In your experiences did you know immediately that you had a flagrant? I've never had one and was wondering what everyone's initial reaction was when they have called it in the past?
I have had several ejection situations over the years...one was a fight involving three players, so it was easy...but there was one several years ago where as L (3 person crew) all I saw was the defensive rebounder stagger out after what I thought was a push. I blew the whistle and put my fist up and saw that my T had a double and was closing hard towards the players. We got together and he asked me "Are you going to eject him?" My first thought was Oh sh!t" What did I miss?"...I asked, partner told me that the push was actually a rabbit punch to the kidneys, and I then signalled the ejection right then and there and then went to the table and explained everything...so no, I did not know it was an ejection immediately - that's what partners are for sometimes...

I've also had times when I (or a partner) have something that could be Intentional, and just having a partner say "You going Intentional with that?" is all it takes to help make up our minds...
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old Tue May 09, 2006, 06:25pm
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Someone hit the point on the head (no pun intended)...if it's a flagrant foul, you'll know it's a flagrant foul. The fights are the "easy" ones to call because those are immediate ejections. Flagrants, by definition, are going to be of a "violent and savage nature" (NF 4.19.4) so if you have them, then I'm sure they'll scream out at you.

I don't want to get into the NBA Flagrant 1 (essentially the same as our intentional foul) and Flagrant 2 system, but Raja Bell's clothesline was clearly going to get him tossed according to any ruleset. Same with Udonis Haslem throwing his mouthpiece at Joey Crawford. A "violent" two-hand to the back on a shot = flagrant foul, while a hard push is intentional (this one is more subjective and you'd need to see an actual play to determine which it is).

As JR reiterates, why not just come up with a closed fist and avoid the intentional signal? If you have an intentional foul, then show the signal to the table when you report it otherwise you can tell the table what type of foul you have verbally. If you're sure you're calling an intentional, then by all means show that sign at the scene of the crime.

For my college/university games, we conference on all techicals, intentionals and flagrants (I haven't had any yet). Badnewsref, your supervisor is teaching it the same way I've heard it. Make sure your crew knows what's going on before everyone else. You see the same mechanic done at the pro level. There's always a quick conference with the crew before they report a flagrant.

It's unfortunate that the NFHS and NCAA haven't come out with set mechanics on how to deal with flagrant fouls. I'm assuming it's because it doesn't happen very often, so the need to come up with a signal could just confuse people. Who knows?!? Most times a flagrant foul is a result of a fight, so after the melee you wouldn't need really be standing in the reporting box giving signals to the table. You'd be conferring with the table crew and telling them face-to-face who's gotten ejected.

Last edited by Dribble; Tue May 09, 2006 at 06:28pm.
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