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I've never had occassion to call a flagrant foul so I don't know what my natural reaction would be mechanic-wise.
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A-hole formerly known as BNR |
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Peace
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Let us get into "Good Trouble." ----------------------------------------------------------- Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010) |
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You're using semantics to justify your response, but as Chuck says, let's not belabor the point. |
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Are flagrant personal fouls always an instantaneous decision in the mind of the official? Meaning should an official know the instant that he blows his whistle that he has a flagrant personal foul as opposed to having just a intentional/hard foul? What if you come up with just a fist b/c your immediate instinct was flagrant but then after processing all the info in your head (or getting some info from a partner) you then decide you're just going with an intentional? You would then have to explain why you came with a fist and then reported an intentional, right? Haven't there been times in your career when you came with a fist for a common foul but then changed to an intentional? IMO, I don't thinks it's that big a deal if for some reason you initially came with crossed-arms. If you end up ruling it a flagrant personal, coaches aren't going to wonder why you ejected his player b/c you will be explaining to the coach as soon as you get done reporting to the table. And in the JuCo conference for which I work, my supervisor (veteran Final-Four official) doesn't want any flagrant fouls reported to the table until you have gone to at least one of your partners first, so the other officials won't be wondering either, they will know b/c you told them. As far as the evaluator, I would think he would be more concerned that you got the call right (flagrant v. intentional) and getting your version of what you saw on the play.
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A-hole formerly known as BNR Last edited by Raymond; Tue May 09, 2006 at 08:05am. |
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You obviously know the difference between an intentional foul and a flagrant foul, but you still went ahead and did it wrong. As you said, any doubt, you coulda just signalled a foul with a fist, and then made up your mind as to the kind. T'other way don't make sense at all to me. Btw, evaluators surely do wanna see you get the call right. They also wanna see you use the proper procedures while getting the call right, with no indecisivness involved. I'm with Dribble. Use the correct signal. Last edited by Jurassic Referee; Tue May 09, 2006 at 09:50am. |
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I have never advocating doing something specific, I just said I had never experienced such a call and did not know what to do. Also the NF does not give much guidance as to what to do or how to make this call. Also when I made the call not one person had a problem with the signal, the call or the way I reported the foul. There were no coaches complaining about the signal and what it meant. NOT ONE PERSON said a word or questioned or was at all confused about what I called or why I made the call. The only person that seemed to have a problem with the sequence was me. The first thing I did was ask around and I got so many answers and opinions. I also think one of the reasons no one had a problem, there is no acceptable sequence in writing anywhere at least with the NF and NCAA. If I took your opinion to people that I worked for, you have no credibility with them to change their opinion or to validate why the feel the way they do. Quote:
Peace
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Let us get into "Good Trouble." ----------------------------------------------------------- Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010) |
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A-hole formerly known as BNR |
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Any NCAA rules and interpretations in this post are relevant for men's games only! |
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I certainly can agree with delaying any final signal for a second or two- to make sure in your own mind that you really should toss the player. I can't agree with the college-level officials that advised you to come out initially with the intentional foul signal though. I think their reasoning is faulty. The plain ol' raised fist initially is good enough- you can then make up your mind if anything further is needed- i.e. intentional or flagrant. |
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I've also had times when I (or a partner) have something that could be Intentional, and just having a partner say "You going Intentional with that?" is all it takes to help make up our minds... |
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Someone hit the point on the head (no pun intended)...if it's a flagrant foul, you'll know it's a flagrant foul. The fights are the "easy" ones to call because those are immediate ejections. Flagrants, by definition, are going to be of a "violent and savage nature" (NF 4.19.4) so if you have them, then I'm sure they'll scream out at you.
I don't want to get into the NBA Flagrant 1 (essentially the same as our intentional foul) and Flagrant 2 system, but Raja Bell's clothesline was clearly going to get him tossed according to any ruleset. Same with Udonis Haslem throwing his mouthpiece at Joey Crawford. A "violent" two-hand to the back on a shot = flagrant foul, while a hard push is intentional (this one is more subjective and you'd need to see an actual play to determine which it is). As JR reiterates, why not just come up with a closed fist and avoid the intentional signal? If you have an intentional foul, then show the signal to the table when you report it otherwise you can tell the table what type of foul you have verbally. If you're sure you're calling an intentional, then by all means show that sign at the scene of the crime. For my college/university games, we conference on all techicals, intentionals and flagrants (I haven't had any yet). Badnewsref, your supervisor is teaching it the same way I've heard it. Make sure your crew knows what's going on before everyone else. You see the same mechanic done at the pro level. There's always a quick conference with the crew before they report a flagrant. It's unfortunate that the NFHS and NCAA haven't come out with set mechanics on how to deal with flagrant fouls. I'm assuming it's because it doesn't happen very often, so the need to come up with a signal could just confuse people. Who knows?!? Most times a flagrant foul is a result of a fight, so after the melee you wouldn't need really be standing in the reporting box giving signals to the table. You'd be conferring with the table crew and telling them face-to-face who's gotten ejected. Last edited by Dribble; Tue May 09, 2006 at 06:28pm. |
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