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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 09, 2004, 04:39pm
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RockyRoad

At no point during my rambling did I say I was a better official than anyone else. Stay above the belt, no low blows please. I'm just expressing an opinion, and some frustrations about officiating on The Official Forum - which I think is as good a place as any. No harm intended.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 09, 2004, 05:03pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by mnref14
Stay above the belt, no low blows please. I'm just expressing an opinion, and some frustrations about officiating on The Official Forum - which I think is as good a place as any. No harm intended.

"Stay above the belt"? Uh, if you back up a little in this thread, I think that you'll find that you referred to some of your fellow officials who don't share your philosophy as "clowns". That's more of a low blow that anything that Rocky wrote. To be quite honest, I had the same impression of your post that Rocky had. Also, to be quite honest, I disagree with about 90% of what you've posted so far. No need to get frustrated- that's just the way it is. It's certainly not personal; it's just a difference in our officiating philosophies.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 09, 2004, 05:10pm
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Kids

I think the analogy with kids works here. I asked because you'd said specifically that putting the ball down is like spanking kids, they can both be avoided with clear communication.
My nearly 4 year old daughter speaks and understands English quite well. She also knows how to try to ignore me when I'm telling her something she doesn't like (coaches and players do this as well.) My ability to communicate with her isn't diminished by the fact that I occasionally have to pop her on the backside.
The difference is that I can follow up her spanking with more calm communication about why I did it (Juulie's example of the street is perfect here), but I can't do that with coaches when I put the ball down. It would defeat the purpose of putting it down if I spent 30 seconds explaining the rules to the coach.
I refuse to believe that a ref who is forced to put the ball down is some how at fault. I will say, however, that the threshold at which you can and should put it down is going to vary by region. I can't say I've even seen a violation or uncontested layup around here, although I've seen some teams have to hustle as the ball was put in play. We're pretty loose with it around here, and most teams break at or near (within a couple of seconds) of the 2nd horn.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 09, 2004, 05:14pm
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Jurassic Ref

I have no problem with your differing opinion, and I certainly don't intend to say I'm a better official than anyone who officiates differently than me. Please note that. However, those who work against the players/coaches, those who are happy to have the spotlight on them, those with quick triggers, those who are happy to show everyone how smart they are, etc. Make it hard on the rest of us. I do some coaching in Baseball, I see officials who do this kind of stuff on the field and its frustrating. Let me put it this way, there are times when I can feel and understand why coaches don't appreciate/respect officials. There are some who ruin it for others. The putting the ball down on the floor conversation just set something off in me I wanted to see addressed.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 09, 2004, 05:28pm
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Snaqwells

I still wish I hadn't used that metaphor, but ... oh, well. Here's the deal....How on God's green earth can any official be forced to put the ball down????? Get them out of the dang huddle....Communicate!!! Who in their right mind is going to say, no we're not coming out??? The only times I've ever seen this done, was during JV games where the officials were just trying to prove a point - its bogus. It makes us look bad, its not necessary - it negatively effects how people perceive us as officials. NOTHING POSITIVE COMES FROM IT. We don't need it. Its like when I started out officiating and all I did was look for 3 seconds, finally an experienced official said to me, "What good does that do for the game?? Talk to the players, get them to leave the lane." Sure has helped over the last 8 years, if I had said "Forget that guy." And not thought about the concept I wouldn't have improved as an official, but every goofy Dad in the crowd would have thought I was great - "Way to call the 3 seconds." Instead, I'll communicate - I'll stay positive and if players and coaches are willing to do the same it'll be all good.

I really enjoy discussing these thoughts with you folks who take it seriously, even if you disagree with me 90% of the time!!!!
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 09, 2004, 05:28pm
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Re: RockyRoad

Quote:
Originally posted by mnref14
At no point during my rambling did I say I was a better official than anyone else. Stay above the belt, no low blows please. I'm just expressing an opinion, and some frustrations about officiating on The Official Forum - which I think is as good a place as any. No harm intended.
You equated calling a T with losing control of the game, and then threw in the fact that you only called two all year... and you referred to other officials as "clowns"...but you're right, you never said you were better than any other officials...guess I should aim a little higher next time, huh???
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 09, 2004, 05:31pm
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Rocky Road

Please try hard not to be offended, that was not my intent. No calling a T does not necessarily mean you or anyone else has lost control of the game. "Clowns" was my catch phrase for officials who don't work as hard and do nearly as good a job as you or anyone else on this board!!! You, Rocky Road, are not a Clown!!!!
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 09, 2004, 05:33pm
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mnref14,
Also, the motives your imputing to these other officials you've interacted with seem like caricatures to me. Some officials, as they're learning and developing, will enforce more rules more strictly than others. To say they're doing it out of a power trip seems presumptuous at best.
The fact that some officials are more tightly bound to the rules than others does not make them ego-maniac type-A's. You may find your philosophy better, that's to be expected, but claiming their motives are impure isn't the way to get your point across or to address any lingering issues.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 09, 2004, 05:33pm
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Re: Snaqwells

Quote:
Originally posted by mnref14
...How on God's green earth can any official be forced to put the ball down????? Get them out of the dang huddle....Communicate!!! Who in their right mind is going to say, no we're not coming out??? The only times I've ever seen this done, was during JV games where the officials were just trying to prove a point - its bogus. It makes us look bad, its not necessary - it negatively effects how people perceive us as officials. NOTHING POSITIVE COMES FROM IT. We don't need it. Its like when I started out officiating and all I did was look for 3 seconds, finally an experienced official said to me, "What good does that do for the game?? Talk to the players, get them to leave the lane." Sure has helped over the last 8 years, if I had said "Forget that guy." And not thought about the concept I wouldn't have improved as an official, but every goofy Dad in the crowd would have thought I was great - "Way to call the 3 seconds." Instead, I'll communicate - I'll stay positive and if players and coaches are willing to do the same it'll be all good.
Communication requires that someone listen. No matter how hard you try, there are some that simply are not going to listen. Nothing you do can make them listen.

If they choose not to listen, then the ball goes down. I probably average putting it down less than once per year...but there are times it needs to be done.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 09, 2004, 05:47pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Camron Rust
Quote:
Originally posted by mnref14
...How on God's green earth can any official be forced to put the ball down????? Get them out of the dang huddle....Communicate!!! Who in their right mind is going to say, no we're not coming out??? The only times I've ever seen this done, was during JV games where the officials were just trying to prove a point - its bogus. It makes us look bad, its not necessary - it negatively effects how people perceive us as officials. NOTHING POSITIVE COMES FROM IT. We don't need it.
Communication requires that someone listen. No matter how hard you try, there are some that simply are not going to listen. Nothing you do can make them listen.

If they choose not to listen, then the ball goes down. I probably average putting it down less than once per year...but there are times it needs to be done.

Now the above I agree with completely. It's just another call. If it happens, it happens; it doesn't make you a better or a worse official if you have to use the procedure.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 09, 2004, 05:50pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by mnref14
You, Rocky Road, are not a Clown!!!!

Uh, don't get carried away now. You might wanna re-think that statement. Rocky's all-time favorite hero happens to be Bozo the Clown. And he's a Mariner's fan.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 09, 2004, 06:13pm
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Re: Snaqwells

Quote:
Originally posted by mnref14
I still wish I hadn't used that metaphor, but ... oh, well. Here's the deal....How on God's green earth can any official be forced to put the ball down????? Get them out of the dang huddle....Communicate!!! Who in their right mind is going to say, no we're not coming out???
Who said anything about someone in their right mind. The rule isn't there for coaches in their right mind. It's there for when the coach chooses to ignore us. It's there for a reason, not to be ignored.

Quote:
The only times I've ever seen this done, was during JV games where the officials were just trying to prove a point - its bogus.
Yeah, and your experience is all-inclusive?

Quote:
It makes us look bad, its not necessary - it negatively effects how people perceive us as officials. NOTHING POSITIVE COMES FROM IT. We don't need it.
It's not the thought that it shouldn't happen that puzzles me, it's your sweeping statement that any official who does it is somehow at fault.

Quote:
Its like when I started out officiating and all I did was look for 3 seconds, finally an experienced official said to me, "What good does that do for the game?? Talk to the players, get them to leave the lane." Sure has helped over the last 8 years, if I had said "Forget that guy." And not thought about the concept I wouldn't have improved as an official, but every goofy Dad in the crowd would have thought I was great - "Way to call the 3 seconds." Instead, I'll communicate - I'll stay positive and if players and coaches are willing to do the same it'll be all good.
No one here has advocated calling 3 seconds every time a kid stands there too long. But I doubt that you'll find someone around here who says any official who ever calls 3 seconds is not communicating enough with the players. There are situations where a kid isn't listening for whatever reason. Many officials will go seasons without calling it, and regret it when they are forced to call it. A kid plants himself in the lane, ignoring your repeated attempts to get him out, and he then gets a pass on about count 6 or 7. You're not calling that?
The same is true for putting the ball down. 99 % of the time we can avoid it easily. It's the one time the coach is so caught up in his kids that he doesn't hear us, or is so peaved at us he's going to prove his point.

You can't make the sweeping assumptions you're making.

BTW, I could see making the argument that we should call three seconds rather than talking to the kids. While I'm trying to get A32 out of the paint, and I'm focused on trying to communicate with him, B15 might just knock A20 on the floor and I missed it because I was discussing the philosophy of time with A32.


[Edited by Snaqwells on Mar 9th, 2004 at 05:18 PM]
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 09, 2004, 11:31pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by TriggerMN
Instead of putting the ball on the floor, try this tactic. After your numerous "Let's go, guys!", go right behind a coach or a player, and hit the whistle long and hard, close to their ear. I've found that usually gets their attention and does the trick.

Define "numerous?" By numerous do you mean two times, three times, four times? One person's numerous may be three time, another official's numerous may be six times. I hope that people are getting the picture that I am trying to paint. There is a protocol to follow, and if one follows the protocol, one will only have to put the ball on the floor just once and only once per game. Remember, putting the ball on the floor is the last resort and should be used sparingly, but when it is necessary do it.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 09, 2004, 11:35pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by bob jenkins
Quote:
Originally posted by JRutledge
Quote:
Originally posted by mnref14

I have never seen a game helped along by an official putting a ball down after a timeout. I can't imagine any coach saying after a game, thanks for putting the ball down after the TO - it made the game go a lot better. Officials too often are trying to teach somebody a lesson with this mechanic. I defy you to watch the NCAA Tournament this year and see this happen, you just won't. Why? Because great officials get those teams out of huddles by communicating.
Actually, you will not see it happen, because at the NCAA level, they do not have the same rule. You cannot do this under NCAA Rules or NBA Rules as well. They have delay penalties and Ts that are possible if this becomes a problem.


[
NCAA Rule 4:

A.R. 32. After a timeout, Team A is entitled to the ball for a throw-in. The referee
blows the whistle indicating that the timeout has ended. When Team A is not at the
designated spot ready to take the ball, the referee shall place the ball on the floor out
of bounds at the disposal of Team A. The visible count begins and: (a) A1 picks up the
ball and releases it for the throw-in within the allotted five seconds; (b) Team A does
not pick up the ball within five seconds; (c) because Team A did not comply with
throw-in provisions after a timeout, Team B is entitled to possession for a throw-in,
but Team B does not get to the designated spot within five seconds after the referee
places the ball on the floor at Team B’s disposal. RULING: In (a), legal play. In (b),
violation on Team A. The referee shall blow the whistle and begin a five-second count
when the ball is handed to Team B for the throw-in or placed on the floor at Team B’s
disposal. In (c), violation on Team B. The referee shall assess a double indirect technical
foul. Each team shall be penalized for delay of game. No free throws shall be shot
by either team. Play shall resume at the point of interruption.

Thanks Bob, for this post. I also apologize now for any horse manure that comes your way due to my endorsement of your post.

MTD, Sr.
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old Wed Mar 10, 2004, 11:06am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Quote:
Originally posted by mnref14
You, Rocky Road, are not a Clown!!!!

Uh, don't get carried away now. You might wanna re-think that statement. Rocky's all-time favorite hero happens to be Bozo the Clown. And he's a Mariner's fan.
Uh-oh...Bozo the Clown and Mariners all in one post...now you're gonna get this thread deleted, man...
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