The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Basketball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 09, 2004, 09:19am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 46
For those kind enough to ask, yes - I do have two children a daughter who is 6 and a son who is 2. With that being said, it was funny to see the walls go up. Don't you think on occasion its ok to debate how we do things? Too often on this board if someone offers an opinion that is contrary, 4 or 5 of the regulars ridicule them - probably without stopping to think if the point is valid. I have never seen a game helped along by an official putting a ball down after a timeout. I can't imagine any coach saying after a game, thanks for putting the ball down after the TO - it made the game go a lot better. Officials too often are trying to teach somebody a lesson with this mechanic. I defy you to watch the NCAA Tournament this year and see this happen, you just won't. Why? Because great officials get those teams out of huddles by communicating. Watch the NBA, you'll never see it; and its not because Rasheed Wallace, Gary Payton, etc. bust out of the huddle hustling to the throw-in spot. Take a step back, think about it - what have you gained by dropping the ball besides the admiration of every Type A personality official on this board??? Yea, I know, that one is going to get me in trouble. I just think a lot of us are too quick to become adversarial with coaches, and it is just not necessary. If you find yourself T'ing coaches left and right, the problem may be you. Just a little March Madness for you all, don't hate me!!! And no, I don't spank my kids very often either!!! Good Play-offs to all.
__________________
Big time refs, make Big time
calls in Big time situations!!!
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 09, 2004, 09:33am
Do not give a damn!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: On the border
Posts: 29,122
Quote:
Originally posted by mnref14

I have never seen a game helped along by an official putting a ball down after a timeout. I can't imagine any coach saying after a game, thanks for putting the ball down after the TO - it made the game go a lot better. Officials too often are trying to teach somebody a lesson with this mechanic. I defy you to watch the NCAA Tournament this year and see this happen, you just won't. Why? Because great officials get those teams out of huddles by communicating.
Actually, you will not see it happen, because at the NCAA level, they do not have the same rule. You cannot do this under NCAA Rules or NBA Rules as well. They have delay penalties and Ts that are possible if this becomes a problem.


Quote:
Originally posted by mnref14
Yea, I know, that one is going to get me in trouble. I just think a lot of us are too quick to become adversarial with coaches, and it is just not necessary. If you find yourself T'ing coaches left and right, the problem may be you. Just a little March Madness for you all, don't hate me!!! And no, I don't spank my kids very often either!!! Good Play-offs to all.
And I do not have kids. But I think the reason these kids do as much as they do, is because no one is beating their behinds anymore. And timeout does not work. Because when I as an official try to communicate with these bad a$$ kids, they talk back and try to challenge your authority. If parents would teach their kids to respect authority and stop trying to be their friends and equals, we might not have the same problems today. I cannot imagine have a child that has a stockpile of guns and I as a parent not know about it. But when you allow them to have locks on their doors and a TV in their room with complete privacy, what do you expect?

Sorry but I had to comment on that last thing.

Peace
__________________
"When the phone does not ring, the assignor is calling."
--Black

Charles Michael Mick Chambers (1947-2010)
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 09, 2004, 09:38am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 116
Agreed, to a certain point. You will get some teams that take advantage of the situation to the extreme, and at some point you cannot penalize a team that is consistently ready at the second horn while the other team dealys for another 10-15 seconds. With that said, I've not put a ball on the floor in years. You've got 2 weapons:
1- After the first delay, take the next opportunity during a dead ball or when you're in front of the coach to ask him to help you out on getting out of the huddle on that first horn. Also, this is one of the rare times when an army of assistant coaches can be helpful to the official. Find one of them who looks responsible standing at the back of the huddle and use him as your intermediary so you don't have to personally bust the huddle. Some of these teams have more assistants than players these days, so there's a good chance you'll find one with nothing to do.
2- If the delays persist, give the whistle an extra long tweet 5 seconds after the second horn until someone in the visiting huddle looks at you. When you get the look, give the body appearance that you're getting ready to put the ball on the floor. This gets them out 95% of the time and usually for the rest of the game as well.

Putting the ball on the floor is one of those situations that an official should not use except in the most egregious circumstances, and if you use your communication and diplomatic skills effectively, you'll only do it a few times in your career.
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 09, 2004, 09:40am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 365
Well, I won't go so far as saying that your point needed to be posted. However, I'm glad you did. Not sure I agree with it all but it does bring up an interesting point. I work hard to bring players out of the time-outs and have only dropped the ball once or twice this year out of about 60 games. Not trying to assert my authority when I do, just tired of having one team stand around while I yell "white ball" over and over. I can't beg a player to come get it from me.

Quote:
Originally posted by mnref14
Officials too often are trying to teach somebody a lesson with this mechanic
Point taken. It is not in my personality to be ostentatious about my authority.

Quote:
Originally posted by mnref14
… besides the admiration of every Type A personality official on this board??? Yea, I know, that one is going to get me in trouble
Glad you said it because it is true. There are a lot of them. It does take a certain personality type to become an official. This is true at all levels. But having an open mind is also critical, admitting fault is just as important too.

Quote:
Originally posted by mnref14
I just think a lot of us are too quick to become adversarial with coaches, and it is just not necessary. If you find yourself T'ing coaches left and right, the problem may be you.
Good point. Coaches can make it very difficult to avoid this approach. Being supporters of each other seems rare. However, I try to make sure it is not because of me.

Quote:
Originally posted by mnref14
And no, I don't spank my kids very often either!!!
Why not?
__________________
"referee the defense"
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 09, 2004, 09:41am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 14,612
Thumbs down This isn't necessarily poor game management.

Quote:
Originally posted by mnref14
I can't imagine any coach saying after a game, thanks for putting the ball down after the TO - it made the game go a lot better.
Is this why you officiate?

If a team delays coming out of a TO, the rule is that the ball is put on the floor. I don't have to do it often but I've never had to do this more than once. Does it make the game better? Yes, it does. Ignore these delays and teams will delay more and more.

As a matter of fact, coaches in my arera expect you to give them the ball or put it on the floor if they've followed the rules and their opponents haven't.

And why shouldn't they?

BTW, I didn't T a HS coach the entire year.
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 09, 2004, 10:04am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 9,466
Send a message via AIM to rainmaker
Quote:
Originally posted by mnref14
I can't imagine any coach saying after a game, thanks for putting the ball down after the TO - it made the game go a lot better. Officials too often are trying to teach somebody a lesson with this mechanic.
Mn, with all due respect, there are times when officials MUST teach somebody a lesson. The lesson is, when the horn blows, the timeout is over. If you don't want to abide by that, there's a penalty. That's a lesson players need to learn when they are trying to block the shot. There's a penalty if you do it wrong. It's a lesson refs are supposed to teach, and the ref is there to administer the penalty when it's needed. No one is talking about counting to three after the second horn, and then putting the ball down. We're talking about extended delays, stalling, ignoring, and then deliberately flouting.

And by the way, OF COURSE you don't see this on TV. You also dont see the teams stalling in the huddle, and taking forever to get out. They get 3 minute timeouts, for pete's sake, and they get 10 or 20 of them. My 7th grade girls games are on a more rigid time-budget.
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 09, 2004, 10:14am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 9,466
Send a message via AIM to rainmaker
Quote:
Originally posted by mnref14
... besides the admiration of every Type A personality official on this board??? Yea, I know, that one is going to get me in trouble. I just think a lot of us are too quick to become adversarial with coaches, and it is just not necessary. If you find yourself T'ing coaches left and right, the problem may be you... And no, I don't spank my kids very often either!!!
I AM a regular on this board, and I do advocate putting the ball on the floor if necessary, but I am definitely NOT a Type A personality that admires people who T the coaches left and right. You need to read a little more carefully to see what people are really trying to say, and not jump to the defensive quite so quickly. And no, I don't spank my kids very often, and I don't advocate spanking kids very often, but a good spank at the right moment is just the thing to teach the important lesson.

Actually, now that I'm thinking of this metaphor, let's go ahead and write it out. All my kids have needed a spank in this one particular situaiton, and it was something I knew ahead of time I would not hesitate to do if necessary. The situation is when the child runs out into the street without looking. When my child would do that, I would take him or her to the sidewalk, and spank them good and hard. I figured the pain would be less, and more life-enhancing, than letting the kid learn it the hard way -- getting plowed by 2 tons of steel at 35 miles per hour. Immediately AFTER the spank, I explained gently, and then we practiced looking before crossing. NONE of my children needed that lesson more than once. But it would not have been as effective as the talking alone without the spank. And it wasn't worth the risk that they not learn the lesson. Spanking definitely has its place. And so does the placing of the ball on the floor after the time out.

Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 09, 2004, 10:14am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 46
I wish I had chosen a different metaphor!

Thanks for your open-minded responses. I realize I'm being a bit of an antagonist on this issue, and since we don't know each other from Adam I shouldn't be judging you as officials from a thousand miles away. Maybe players and coaches abuse TO lengths where you are. Also, JRut - I always appreciate your point of view on here; I envision you as a grizzled vet. I think all parents should take the responsibility of disciplining their children in a loving way, and that very well may include spanking and/or Timeouts!!! You're right, there has been a steady decline in respect for authority. Good debate, have a great day.
__________________
Big time refs, make Big time
calls in Big time situations!!!
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 09, 2004, 10:29am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 17,243
Quote:
Originally posted by JRutledge
Quote:
Originally posted by mnref14

I have never seen a game helped along by an official putting a ball down after a timeout. I can't imagine any coach saying after a game, thanks for putting the ball down after the TO - it made the game go a lot better. Officials too often are trying to teach somebody a lesson with this mechanic. I defy you to watch the NCAA Tournament this year and see this happen, you just won't. Why? Because great officials get those teams out of huddles by communicating.
Actually, you will not see it happen, because at the NCAA level, they do not have the same rule. You cannot do this under NCAA Rules or NBA Rules as well. They have delay penalties and Ts that are possible if this becomes a problem.


[
NCAA Rule 4:

A.R. 32. After a timeout, Team A is entitled to the ball for a throw-in. The referee
blows the whistle indicating that the timeout has ended. When Team A is not at the
designated spot ready to take the ball, the referee shall place the ball on the floor out
of bounds at the disposal of Team A. The visible count begins and: (a) A1 picks up the
ball and releases it for the throw-in within the allotted five seconds; (b) Team A does
not pick up the ball within five seconds; (c) because Team A did not comply with
throw-in provisions after a timeout, Team B is entitled to possession for a throw-in,
but Team B does not get to the designated spot within five seconds after the referee
places the ball on the floor at Team B’s disposal. RULING: In (a), legal play. In (b),
violation on Team A. The referee shall blow the whistle and begin a five-second count
when the ball is handed to Team B for the throw-in or placed on the floor at Team B’s
disposal. In (c), violation on Team B. The referee shall assess a double indirect technical
foul. Each team shall be penalized for delay of game. No free throws shall be shot
by either team. Play shall resume at the point of interruption.
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 09, 2004, 11:48am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 737
Talking

Instead of putting the ball on the floor, try this tactic. After your numerous "Let's go, guys!", go right behind a coach or a player, and hit the whistle long and hard, close to their ear. I've found that usually gets their attention and does the trick.
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 09, 2004, 12:00pm
DJ DJ is offline
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 244
Smile Put it down!

I have been a strong advocate of putting the ball down in these posts yet I have not "put one down" for many years the reason being it has not been necessary because we get them out of the huddle but if they ain't coming out then I will.....! Good officials always try to work with the kids and the coaches but there are times when it is time to not be a nice guy because you are always finishing last. And when it has come to this then it is time to be a man and do what is right and fair for everyone involved. I don't do what I do to be a nice guy but I do what I do because it is my job and that is why I was hired. I am a nice guy but......I have to establish limits because it is the right thing to do.
__________________
"Will not leave you hanging!"
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 09, 2004, 01:24pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: In the offseason.
Posts: 11,908
Quote:
Originally posted by bob jenkins
Quote:
Originally posted by JRutledge
Quote:
Originally posted by mnref14

I have never seen a game helped along by an official putting a ball down after a timeout. I can't imagine any coach saying after a game, thanks for putting the ball down after the TO - it made the game go a lot better. Officials too often are trying to teach somebody a lesson with this mechanic. I defy you to watch the NCAA Tournament this year and see this happen, you just won't. Why? Because great officials get those teams out of huddles by communicating.
Actually, you will not see it happen, because at the NCAA level, they do not have the same rule. You cannot do this under NCAA Rules or NBA Rules as well. They have delay penalties and Ts that are possible if this becomes a problem.


[
NCAA Rule 4:

A.R. 32. After a timeout, Team A is entitled to the ball for a throw-in. The referee
blows the whistle indicating that the timeout has ended. When Team A is not at the
designated spot ready to take the ball, the referee shall place the ball on the floor out
of bounds at the disposal of Team A. The visible count begins and: (a) A1 picks up the
ball and releases it for the throw-in within the allotted five seconds; (b) Team A does
not pick up the ball within five seconds; (c) because Team A did not comply with
throw-in provisions after a timeout, Team B is entitled to possession for a throw-in,
but Team B does not get to the designated spot within five seconds after the referee
places the ball on the floor at Team B’s disposal. RULING: In (a), legal play. In (b),
violation on Team A. The referee shall blow the whistle and begin a five-second count
when the ball is handed to Team B for the throw-in or placed on the floor at Team B’s
disposal. In (c), violation on Team B. The referee shall assess a double indirect technical
foul. Each team shall be penalized for delay of game. No free throws shall be shot
by either team. Play shall resume at the point of interruption.
Imagining the upcoming response...

Well, if you want to advance around here, no good official will call it that way...
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 09, 2004, 02:15pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 719
imagined responses - part deux

I beat my kids, put the ball on the floor, and have T'd every coach in the league for having one foot outside the coaches box.

For those of you that don't know me, its just a joke!
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 09, 2004, 03:43pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 46
Not so far from the truth

You know there are some refs out there that do all of those things, except the beating their kids part. They make it tough on the rest of thus. If I hear it once I hear it a hundred times: "yea, I T'd up so and so..." Great. I don't think losing the handle on a game is something to be proud of. There's a time and a place, but why can I go through a season with 2 T's while another guy/gal may give 20??? No wonder the crowd is out to get us half the time, the 2 clowns that worked the last game were putting the ball down every other TO - T'ing up people for "giving me that look" - calling the Athletic Director because there's no X by the table and T'ing at coaches who stepped out of the box to tell his team to switch to a 2-3!!! It takes all kinds.
__________________
Big time refs, make Big time
calls in Big time situations!!!
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 09, 2004, 04:25pm
Esteemed Participant
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Vancouver, WA
Posts: 4,775
So basically what you are saying mnref14, is that you are a better official than others here because you've only called 2 T's this year and didn't put the ball down once on a time-out??? Interesting evaluation criteria...
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:01pm.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1