Camps this Offseason

[SC Official]

Originally Posted by Rich

Send them some game film. I only hire for 24 HS at the varsity level, but I use film all the time. You can tell who can ref in a short period of time.

The camp system exists for the $$. The venue pays the camp, the officials pay the camp, and the camp organizers (who are already paid supervisors) get rich.

The problem is all game film is not created equal.

I agree with you that the camp system exists for the money, but I do understand that their is legitimate apprehension behind hiring someone unseen. Host a camp all you want, but the double-dipping is unethical.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by SC Official

The problem is all game film is not created equal.

I agree with you that the camp system exists for the money, but I do understand that their is legitimate apprehension behind hiring someone unseen. Host a camp all you want, but the double-dipping is unethical.

It's triple-dipping. Get a paycheck, get official camp fees, get game fees for the camp games.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Rich

It's triple-dipping. Get a paycheck, get official camp fees, get game fees for the camp games.

I see nothing wrong with this. I know we do this at lesser camps. And the game fees pay the clinicians that are sitting watching and giving instructions for multiple games. And sometimes those fees are lesser than what an official would be paid for the game or willing to work.

Peace

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I see nothing wrong with this. I know we do this at lesser camps. And the game fees pay the clinicians that are sitting watching and giving instructions for multiple games. And sometimes those fees are lesser than what an official would be paid for the game or willing to work.



Peace

I have a big problem with it. Campers are the one who are performing the work that allows that tournament to happen. Supervisors and camp organizers are making a huge profit off camps, not a little profit. Campers are not getting $400-600 worth of instruction. Many campers get ignored when it comes to feedback and in reality are only there so that that supervisors can hold on to that tournament.

I've also seen camp coordinators who don't divulge that they are no longer supervisors and hold camps without clearly informing campers that they are no longer in charge of a conference.

Maybe it's a regional thing. I know Rick Boyages is a good person and as a college coach at William & Mary he treated officials who worked his scrimmages better than any other coach I've done such work for.

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[SC Official]

Originally Posted by Raymond

I have a big problem with it. Campers are the one who are performing the work that allows that tournament to happen. Supervisors and camp organizers are making a huge profit off camps, not a little profit. Campers are not getting $400-600 worth of instruction. Many campers get ignored when it comes to feedback and in reality are only there so that that supervisors can hold on to that tournament.

I've also seen camp coordinators who don't divulge that they are no longer supervisors and hold camps without clearly informing campers that they are no longer in charge of a conference.

Maybe it's a regional thing. I know Rick Boyages is a good person and as a college coach at William & Mary he treated officials who worked his scrimmages better than any other coach I've done such work for.

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Yep.

I laugh while listening to the preachy arguments in defense of the camp system. It's as though because I don't think I should have to sell my soul to referee college basketball, I clearly "don't care about getting better" and would be better off just quitting altogether.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by SC Official

Yep.

I laugh while listening to the preachy arguments in defense of the camp system. It's as though because I don't think I should have to sell my soul to referee college basketball, I clearly "don't care about getting better" and would be better off just quitting altogether.

Then what is the better solution? Because I feel going to camp can make you better. Sitting at home on social media does not make you better alone. So what is the solution so that you feel that officials are evaluated and hired properly? You would have to have some solution if you have a lot to complain about in the "current" system?

Peace

[SC Official]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Then what is the better solution? Because I feel going to camp can make you better. Sitting at home on social media does not make you better alone. So what is the solution so that you feel that officials are evaluated and hired properly? You would have to have some solution if you have a lot to complain about in the "current" system?

Peace

Christ. Again, making stuff up as usual. Nowhere did I say that camps can't make you better.

If you actually took the time to read my posts in this thread, you would see that I have not called for getting rid of camps (in fact, quite the opposite). I have called out what the camp circuit has evolved into. You act as though camps and the racket they create are one in the same. It doesn't have to be that way. Coordinators could, God forbid, get their leagues to cover the camp expenses, as one idea. After all, why should I have to pay you (an exorbitant amount, at that) for a job interview? That should be your employer's job to cover those costs.

That is great that you don't feel the camps you attend are scams. Not everyone has to have the same opinion as you - and there are plenty of people who don't.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Raymond

I have a big problem with it. Campers are the one who are performing the work that allows that tournament to happen. Supervisors and camp organizers are making a huge profit off camps, not a little profit. Campers are not getting $400-600 worth of instruction. Many campers get ignored when it comes to feedback and in reality are only there so that that supervisors can hold on to that tournament.

Well I think we need to categorize this on many levels. A camp where there are costing hundreds of dollars I do not treat the same as a camp where you do not pay $100 for the camp. And if I am paying for a camp that is $500 to $600 and my hotel is included, I do not personally care what fees the camp gets because you are saving the camper money. Now if you are charging the camper $500 and not paying for any lodging or any food, then that is a different issue. But again I am going to assume the clinicians are being paid something for attending as well, like their lodging or even a fee for sitting there all day to evaluate campers. I do not look at all camps the same in this respect.

Originally Posted by Raymond

I've also seen camp coordinators who don't divulge that they are no longer supervisors and hold camps without clearly informing campers that they are no longer in charge of a conference.

I had this happen to me. I attended a camp and later that summer the supervisor was fired. But I also worked baseball for that individual in that same conference, so it was kind of a blow and probably the closest I got to getting hired in that conference.

Originally Posted by Raymond

Maybe it's a regional thing. I know Rick Boyages is a good person and as a college coach at William & Mary he treated officials who worked his scrimmages better than any other coach I've done such work for.

But the B1G also invest money into their camp system. Not sure how much of that money I referenced is coming totally out of their pocket when they run camps, but I know they give their campers a lot when you attend. The hotel I stayed in last year would have cost me way over the camp fee if I did not have hotel included and its location.

Peace

[SC Official]

Originally Posted by Rich

It's triple-dipping. Get a paycheck, get official camp fees, get game fees for the camp games.

Again, I have made very clear that I share the belief that the camp circuit has evolved into a scam. You are never going to hear me pretend otherwise.

And don't forget registration fees collected from officials before the season. They will claim they are "covering their expenses," but shouldn't that be the conference's job?