Camps this Offseason

[SC Official]

Originally Posted by Raymond

I don't know who's talking about getting rid of camps, at least I know I'm not. I'm talking about getting rid of the exorbitant prices we pay to go to camp, and sometimes to stay on staff

Talked to somebody today who had initially paid $500 to go to a staff camp this spring, but it got postponed For various reasons they have since decided to relocate to another state, which will take them too far away from the conference. The supervisor does not want to give them back their camp fee, for a camp that's still at least two months away. That's the mindset and environment I'm talking about.

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I'm not talking about getting rid of camps, either. But I'm not surprised Rut took it that way and won't back down.

I know a certain low-level supervisor who still is wholly convinced he's having camp in some way, some fashion, before the season. Well, good luck finding basketball tournaments to officiate during football season. I don't think he's given anyone their money back and will likely do anything in his power not to.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by SC Official

I'm not talking about getting rid of camps, either. But I'm not surprised Rut took it that way and won't back down.

If you actually read what I said, I was asking for a solution? People that talk complain about the camp system do not explain what is the way to solve the issue. I was asking for solutions and the only other solution that is obvious if you are complaining about something is to either eliminate it or to overhaul the system you are complaining about does not work or is a rachet. Rich says he hires people by using game film. Well if that is the main way you hire prospective officials then you are not using the camp system are you?

Now I can say that just about every high school assignor I work for either runs their own camp or they are apart of some camp that they evaluate or look at propsective officials. Usually those officials are people they have never seen and do not work any lower level games for them during the season. But those that wish to work varsity and have never been seen by an assignor needs to be seen somewhere. Obviously, during the season there are more opportunities to see officials work games as there are plenty of opportunities to watch someone work, but most assignors are active officials and often have to go by what others say or have to be at the right game where they watch fellow officials work. I was also giving a perspective as a multiple sports official that has worked for years in systems where never do you have a camp to get hired. Basketball is the only sport that I can think of where there are multiple opportunities to work games in the off-season and those opportunities can be and have been used as a camp. Not every state has spring football or some off-season opportunity to evaluate talent in a live or semi-live situation. The opportunity we once had in Illinois was taken away with having games no-full contact practices and we never could see teams play each other in that capacity before anyway. Teams could only do that in an intrasquad situation and that was very limited in the first place. Even in baseball and softball, it is very rare to see camps in those settings because it seems that no one wants to run a game based off of training of officials the way we do in basketball. Maybe that should change but that is the way it seems to be now.

All I was asking for was solutions as to how this is changed? Because if the camp directors/organizers and administrators stop taking the pay for the games, how are they paying for all the expenses that would be to run any camp? Right, wrong or indifferent, those events cost money to either staff, hold meetings, or supplement the cost of the camp for materials or other things that campers might get when attending. How do you bring D1 officials from across multiple states and ask them to evaluate officials without compensating them personally in some way? I think that is a fair question and that was all this was about for me. Even a state clinician as I am, I am not coming out all day and spending time watching multiple officials during a day and not getting anything beneficial for my time. And it is standard to pay us something and often we are paid less than $100 over multiple days and even putting together the curriculum with our time outside of family and work so that we fit the standards of the state.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Raymond

I don't know who's talking about getting rid of camps, at least I know I'm not. I'm talking about getting rid of the exorbitant prices we pay to go to camp, and sometimes to stay on staff

John Adams before he was the NCAA Men's Supervisor, would run camps for literally $50. Adams at the time assigned a D3 league, D2 league and the Horizon League that is now taken over by the B1G. That was his training ground for his hiring. But the reality is that it was well known that John was a rich man outside of officiating. He would run a couple of these camps to get identify people. But to be fair as much as I loved his camps, they were not about teaching or learning anything. It seemed strictly a way to hire officials. He did not go over mechanics. He did not go over expectations other than he would talk about the "Money of D1 Basketball." He would talk about an hour by why he is not going to hire you, when he could hire Ed Hightower or Steve Welmer because if his teams made the NCAA Tournament, they would make close to 2 million dollars at the time for every game they played. And then he talked about how that money went to the other schools and how the Horizon a couple of times had 2 teams in the NCAA Tournament not just one. He went on to state how a call in the middle of the season could influence a team making the tournament in a mid-major and how that related to who would his coaches like to see more than some young kid that has not "name" or recognition to his officiating at that level. He even went on and on about if you were west of this town you probably were not as good of an official, but he would need you because you were closer to his a school in that location. Where if you were east of that same town, you would likely have seen much better ball but you were in competition for fewer slots based on your location and that he could use multiple officials from that area at that time. His conversations about that were by far the best, but again I did not learn about rotations, dealing with coaches or what he made a decision about when hiring someone.

A lot of the campers ended up being D1 officials. A lot of his clinicians went from being lower level D1 guys or D2 officials to go on to work the B1G or other conferences like the B12 Consortium (which was one of the first ones at the D1 level at the time). It was actually amazing experience, but not a one for vast opportunities if you did not have someone in your corner that knew him well. Now when John went on to work as the NCAA Supervisor, different supervisors took over his leagues, and then in some cases there were more opportunities for those in certain areas after he left. But I will always be thankful to John and the experience, but I was already an experienced official when I attended his stuff.

Originally Posted by Raymond

Talked to somebody today who had initially paid $500 to go to a staff camp this spring, but it got postponed For various reasons they have since decided to relocate to another state, which will take them too far away from the conference. The supervisor does not want to give them back their camp fee, for a camp that's still at least two months away. That's the mindset and environment I'm talking about.

And that is wrong if that is the case and not what I would ever defend. That is not about the camp system that is about that supervisor. Many of my assignors that took our money for camps, either would pay us back or even apply it to next year's camp if they those cannot attend the rescheduled event.

Peace

[bucky]

Isn't it simple? Camps are a racket but "solutions" or changes can only be performed by those running the racket. That won't happen so on it goes.

It's like asking Trump to change the bankruptcy laws.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by bucky

Isn't it simple? Camps are a racket but "solutions" or changes can only be performed by those running the racket. That won't happen so on it goes.

It's like asking Trump to change the bankruptcy laws.

Like politics or a bill, what is the solution? Leagues are going to hire people one way or the other. What is the solution? You either have a camp system of some kind or you will have nothing and hope you know the right people. What is your solution?

Peace

[bucky]

I definitely have solutions to offer but that is irrelevant. Only those in charge can make the changes. A "camp system" or any other type of "system" is necessary in order to evaluate the abilities of people, whether basketball or....anything else. I would not call the current method, for college basketball officials a "system", rather I would elect to use other words such as "network, club, organization, racket, etc."

Not looking to debate, just giving my two cents.