Reaching out of your area

[ilyazhito]

Originally Posted by Raymond

30 point blow-out, 50/50 block charge play that can go either way in real time. You're going to put the foul on the team losing by 30?

Team A is down by 2 in the last 10 seconds, A1 drives to the basket and incurs contact that has both been passed on and called on earlier plays in the game. What are you going to decide if A1 misses the shot? What are you going to decide if A1 makes the shot?

As far as the play being discussed here. That team is down by 18 points, on the road. You can't miss fouls committed against that team. That was a foul that was missed by the Lead and Trail b/c there were stacked to the contact.

Your "strictly by the book" mindset will work for you at the HS school level. If you ever start working NCAA basketball (I'll speak for this region of the country), you'll see that mindset starting to shift. NCAA supervisors want officials who have common sense and make good decisions.

Raymond, I have no call on the video in the OP, because I don't see any contact between defender and shooter, much less illegal contact. The defender was walking towards the shooter, but I see no contact from the C's or camera's angle. I'm passing on the play. I'm not raising up phantoms, but I will come for obvious misses (definite illegal contact unseen by partners).

In NCAA, no block charge play is 50/50, because of the restricted area arc, so my determination would be (in this order) in or out (of the arc), and then was the defender in a legal guarding position facing his opponent. If in [and no unnatural body positions/motion by the offensive player], then there is only one possible call (block). If out, then I would proceed to determine was the defender legal. Under NFHS rules, I'll determine if the defender was legal, and go with the result of that determination. I would make the exact same call in a 1-score game in the VHSL (MPSSAA or DCSAA) championship as I would in a 30-point blowout.

For the drive to the basket, I would have a foul in both scenarios if the contact was illegal, and no call if the contact was marginal or incidental. It's tough to explain this without video, though.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

Raymond, I have no call on the video in the OP, because I don't see any contact between defender and shooter, much less illegal contact. The defender was walking towards the shooter, but I see no contact from the C's or camera's angle. I'm passing on the play. I'm not raising up phantoms, but I will come for obvious misses (definite illegal contact unseen by partners).

In NCAA, no block charge play is 50/50, because of the restricted area arc, so my determination would be (in this order) in or out (of the arc), and then was the defender in a legal guarding position facing his opponent. If in [and no unnatural body positions/motion by the offensive player], then there is only one possible call (block). If out, then I would proceed to determine was the defender legal. Under NFHS rules, I'll determine if the defender was legal, and go with the result of that determination. I would make the exact same call in a 1-score game in the VHSL (MPSSAA or DCSAA) championship as I would in a 30-point blowout.

For the drive to the basket, I would have a foul in both scenarios if the contact was illegal, and no call if the contact was marginal or incidental. It's tough to explain this without video, though.

Good luck to you. Something about a horse and water...let me know where you are in say 10 years. I should be more patient...however, you lose me when you say there are no 50/50 calls...You need to learn that there are and not split hairs.... If you are In my crew one of first things I’m going to tell you...be aware of what we call. If I call a charge at one end and you have similar play....(0/50 or even 55-45.) call it same. I don’t expect you take bullet for me if I completely butcher it. Get it right.”
You saying there’s no 50/50 calls shows your lack of experience..You won’t move up nor should you with this view. Lot of things are black and white.Those are the easy things. Can you SEE and referee the GRAY areas...

[ilyazhito]

Originally Posted by BigCat

Good luck to you. Something about a horse and water...let me know where you are in say 10 years. I should be more patient...however, you lose me when you say there are no 50/50 calls...You need to learn that there are and not split hairs.... If you are In my crew one of first things I’m going to tell you...be aware of what we call. If I call a charge at one end and you have similar play....(0/50 or even 55-45.) call it same. I don’t expect you take bullet for me if I completely butcher it. Get it right.”
You saying there’s no 50/50 calls shows your lack of experience..You won’t move up nor should you with this view. Lot of things are black and white.Those are the easy things. Can you SEE and referee the GRAY areas...

I only said that there are no 50/50 B/C calls in NCAA because of the restricted area. This means that defender in restricted area with illegal contact (and no unnatural position /motion by offensive player) = block, defender outside with illegal contact = charge if defender is legal, otherwise block. I did not say that there are no 50/50 calls in general, just for a specific situation.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

I only said that there are no 50/50 B/C calls in NCAA because of the restricted area. This means that defender in restricted area with illegal contact (and no unnatural position /motion by offensive player) = block, defender outside with illegal contact = charge if defender is legal, otherwise block. I did not say that there are no 50/50 calls in general, just for a specific situation.

Hmmmm:

In NCAA, no block charge play is 50/50, because of the restricted area arc...

So there are no 50/50 block/charge calls outside of the restricted area? And I guess you've never picked up a play late. You ALWAYS know if the defender was legal b/c you see everything all the time?

How many NCAA games have you worked that you are able to tell us what does or doesn't occur in an NCAA game?

[ilyazhito]

Raymond, re-read post #70. I may not always know what is happening, but I can pickup my secondary defenders and identify their actions and legal/illegal position. I make B/C decisions based on their location (irrelevant for NFHS) and legality. This is why block/charge plays are simple for me (not necessarily easy, because there are moving bodies at high speeds).

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

Raymond, re-read post #70. I may not always know what is happening, but I can pickup my secondary defenders and identify their actions and legal/illegal position. I make B/C decisions based on their location (irrelevant for NFHS) and legality. This is why block/charge plays are simple for me (not necessarily easy, because there are moving bodies at high speeds).

Again, you have a limited amount of experience. There are going to be times where you pick up plays late or are looking in the wrong place then all of a sudden there is a crash in your primary. You live in a Black & White world. Officiating has a lot of grey areas and unexpected things that happen. Believe it or not, most officials judge their B/C calls on the legality of the defenders, you're not opening up some new world to the rest of us. You need to listen more and curtail some of the lectures and history lessons you dispense to us.

[SD Referee]

Originally Posted by Raymond

Again, you have a limited amount of experience. There are going to be times where you pick up plays late or are looking in the wrong place then all of a sudden there is a crash in your primary. You live in a Black & White world. Officiating has a lot of grey areas and unexpected things that happen. Believe it or not, most officials judge their B/C calls on the legality of the defenders, you're not opening up some new world to the rest of us. You need to listen more and curtail some of the lectures and history lessons you dispense to us.

Stay in your lane bro!

(not directed at you Raymond, just quoting my new favorite commercial and telling ilyazhito to listen more, talk less)

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

Raymond, I have no call on the video in the OP, because I don't see any contact between defender and shooter, much less illegal contact. The defender was walking towards the shooter, but I see no contact from the C's or camera's angle. I'm passing on the play. I'm not raising up phantoms, but I will come for obvious misses (definite illegal contact unseen by partners).



In NCAA, no block charge play is 50/50, because of the restricted area arc, so my determination would be (in this order) in or out (of the arc), and then was the defender in a legal guarding position facing his opponent. If in [and no unnatural body positions/motion by the offensive player], then there is only one possible call (block). If out, then I would proceed to determine was the defender legal. Under NFHS rules, I'll determine if the defender was legal, and go with the result of that determination. I would make the exact same call in a 1-score game in the VHSL (MPSSAA or DCSAA) championship as I would in a 30-point blowout.



For the drive to the basket, I would have a foul in both scenarios if the contact was illegal, and no call if the contact was marginal or incidental. It's tough to explain this without video, though.

You think all block charge plays involve the restricted area in college basketball?

You think in real time at game speed all calls are cut and dry? You think officials never have to make an educated guess, even the best officials in the world?

If you ever come to a camp run by Tony Brothers and Leroy Richardson, I would love to hear the conversations you have with them.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[ilyazhito]

Don't you get nuance? In NCAA, restricted area B/C plays are cut and dry, because there is a basic sequence of decisions, but I did not say that there are no non-restricted area plays. I said "If out (of the restricted area), I would proceed to determine whether the defender was legal." This means that B/C plays can occur outside the restricted area as well. I would use the criteria of legal guarding position to determine whether the contact is a block or charge. If I know what to look for (did defender beat offensive player to the spot before offensive player went airborne?), B/C plays are relatively easy.

It's plays where there is possible traveling (or another violation) before the foul that can get difficult. As L, I wI'll most likely be looking at the defender from the feet up to determine LGP, so it would fall to T and/or C to pick up travels, depending on angles. This would be a case where reaching would be completely acceptable, because I might not have a proper angle to rule on both fouls and traveling from my primary area.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

Don't you get nuance?

I'll be over here on my fainting couch.

[LRZ]

Originally Posted by Rich

I'll be over here on my fainting couch.

Move over, Rich, make room for me.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by LRZ

Move over, Rich, make room for me.

I have a glorious set of clutching pearls one can borrow.