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  #61 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 14, 2019, 02:54pm
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Work On The Upper Floors ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
Your "strictly by the book" mindset will work for you at the HS school level ...
Not here in my little corner of Connecticut it won't, especially in varsity games. Our assigner and evaluators expect officials to adjust to changing game situations, sometimes based on time and score, especially in the last two minutes of a close game. And if one expects to be highly rated in game management, experience and observations of more experienced officials will get you further along than reading all the books in China.

Yes, know the rules and interpretations, but that's just the foundation, a solid foundation, but it's just the foundation.

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  #62 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 14, 2019, 03:04pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
30 point blow-out, 50/50 block charge play that can go either way in real time. You're going to put the foul on the team losing by 30?

Team A is down by 2 in the last 10 seconds, A1 drives to the basket and incurs contact that has both been passed on and called on earlier plays in the game. What are you going to decide if A1 misses the shot? What are you going to decide if A1 makes the shot?

As far as the play being discussed here. That team is down by 18 points, on the road. You can't miss fouls committed against that team. That was a foul that was missed by the Lead and Trail b/c there were stacked to the contact.

Your "strictly by the book" mindset will work for you at the HS school level. If you ever start working NCAA basketball (I'll speak for this region of the country), you'll see that mindset starting to shift. NCAA supervisors want officials who have common sense and make good decisions.
I totally agree with most of your comments, I just do not think this is a foul. At least not one that stands out so much that all would agree. There are certainly calls I would suggest should be called even from that position, but this is not one of them IMO.

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  #63 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 14, 2019, 03:18pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
To me personally, time and score is irrelevant when making calls. The rules and casebook (approved rulings) do not mention that one should change calls based on time and score, so doing that would not be game management, but game manipulation. It is not my business whether the game is competitive or a laugher, my only issue is to make sure that players play legally and safely.
You can be 100% on the science of officiating, but if you are a 0% on the art of officiating you won't get anywhere.

The one thing I'll say is this -- plays are clipped and sent in for all sports without context, so you can't just make stuff up, be incorrect, and use the "but it was a 40 point game" thing. But Raymond is right -- a true 50/50 call -- and I know how I'm calling it.

Example -- ball shoots out of bounds with 5 minutes left in a 30 point game. I have no idea who it went off of, but it was close either way. It's going to the losing team without a second thought.

I suppose you'd get help and then, failing to get help, would go to the arrow?
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  #64 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 14, 2019, 03:44pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich View Post
Example -- ball shoots out of bounds with 5 minutes left in a 30 point game. I have no idea who it went off of, but it was close either way. It's going to the losing team without a second thought.

I suppose you'd get help and then, failing to get help, would go to the arrow?
Agreed.

I have been in this situation, and sometimes forgetting about the time/score, I ask for help. And then my partner lackadaisically points the direction of the winning team and we're stuck, when the best option was just to give it to the losing team from the get-go.

I've also been in situations where a partner awards the ball to the losing team on a non-obvious OOB decision, and the other partner comes racing in to give help and the ball gets given to the winning team.
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  #65 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 14, 2019, 03:48pm
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I'm completely opposed to passing on 100% obvious fouls and violations based on time/score, or giving the ball to the losing team when everyone in the gym knows the ball went OOB off them. That opens the door for the winning coach to complain about how we "stopped officiating" and send in plays, and that's a call I never want to get from an assigner.

But if it's truly a play that could go either way when judged in real time, give the benefit of the doubt to the team getting slaughtered. And by all means don't miss anything obvious against the winning team. If that means grabbing something marginal that will keep the losing coach at bay, so be it. If the winning coach wants to complain, let him do so and any assigner worth his salt will ignore him.
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  #66 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 14, 2019, 04:51pm
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I totally agree with 50/50 calls benefitting the team getting killed. But when I started, I would have veteran partners give the ball to that team to start the 4th Q, even though the arrow favored the winning team. Being a rookie I didn't say anything. Now I do. Typically it's Rec or travel, but it did also occur in a couple of HS JV games.
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  #67 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 14, 2019, 05:30pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
30 point blow-out, 50/50 block charge play that can go either way in real time. You're going to put the foul on the team losing by 30?

Team A is down by 2 in the last 10 seconds, A1 drives to the basket and incurs contact that has both been passed on and called on earlier plays in the game. What are you going to decide if A1 misses the shot? What are you going to decide if A1 makes the shot?

As far as the play being discussed here. That team is down by 18 points, on the road. You can't miss fouls committed against that team. That was a foul that was missed by the Lead and Trail b/c there were stacked to the contact.

Your "strictly by the book" mindset will work for you at the HS school level. If you ever start working NCAA basketball (I'll speak for this region of the country), you'll see that mindset starting to shift. NCAA supervisors want officials who have common sense and make good decisions.
Raymond, I have no call on the video in the OP, because I don't see any contact between defender and shooter, much less illegal contact. The defender was walking towards the shooter, but I see no contact from the C's or camera's angle. I'm passing on the play. I'm not raising up phantoms, but I will come for obvious misses (definite illegal contact unseen by partners).

In NCAA, no block charge play is 50/50, because of the restricted area arc, so my determination would be (in this order) in or out (of the arc), and then was the defender in a legal guarding position facing his opponent. If in [and no unnatural body positions/motion by the offensive player], then there is only one possible call (block). If out, then I would proceed to determine was the defender legal. Under NFHS rules, I'll determine if the defender was legal, and go with the result of that determination. I would make the exact same call in a 1-score game in the VHSL (MPSSAA or DCSAA) championship as I would in a 30-point blowout.

For the drive to the basket, I would have a foul in both scenarios if the contact was illegal, and no call if the contact was marginal or incidental. It's tough to explain this without video, though.
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  #68 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 14, 2019, 05:38pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
Raymond, I have no call on the video in the OP, because I don't see any contact between defender and shooter, much less illegal contact. The defender was walking towards the shooter, but I see no contact from the C's or camera's angle. I'm passing on the play. I'm not raising up phantoms, but I will come for obvious misses (definite illegal contact unseen by partners).

In NCAA, no block charge play is 50/50, because of the restricted area arc, so my determination would be (in this order) in or out (of the arc), and then was the defender in a legal guarding position facing his opponent. If in [and no unnatural body positions/motion by the offensive player], then there is only one possible call (block). If out, then I would proceed to determine was the defender legal. Under NFHS rules, I'll determine if the defender was legal, and go with the result of that determination. I would make the exact same call in a 1-score game in the VHSL (MPSSAA or DCSAA) championship as I would in a 30-point blowout.

For the drive to the basket, I would have a foul in both scenarios if the contact was illegal, and no call if the contact was marginal or incidental. It's tough to explain this without video, though.
Good luck to you. Something about a horse and water...let me know where you are in say 10 years. I should be more patient...however, you lose me when you say there are no 50/50 calls...You need to learn that there are and not split hairs.... If you are In my crew one of first things I’m going to tell you...be aware of what we call. If I call a charge at one end and you have similar play....(0/50 or even 55-45.) call it same. I don’t expect you take bullet for me if I completely butcher it. Get it right.”
You saying there’s no 50/50 calls shows your lack of experience..You won’t move up nor should you with this view. Lot of things are black and white.Those are the easy things. Can you SEE and referee the GRAY areas...

Last edited by BigCat; Mon Jan 14, 2019 at 06:16pm.
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  #69 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 14, 2019, 06:02pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
Raymond, I have no call on the video in the OP, because I don't see any contact between defender and shooter, much less illegal contact. The defender was walking towards the shooter, but I see no contact from the C's or camera's angle. I'm passing on the play. I'm not raising up phantoms, but I will come for obvious misses (definite illegal contact unseen by partners).



In NCAA, no block charge play is 50/50, because of the restricted area arc, so my determination would be (in this order) in or out (of the arc), and then was the defender in a legal guarding position facing his opponent. If in [and no unnatural body positions/motion by the offensive player], then there is only one possible call (block). If out, then I would proceed to determine was the defender legal. Under NFHS rules, I'll determine if the defender was legal, and go with the result of that determination. I would make the exact same call in a 1-score game in the VHSL (MPSSAA or DCSAA) championship as I would in a 30-point blowout.



For the drive to the basket, I would have a foul in both scenarios if the contact was illegal, and no call if the contact was marginal or incidental. It's tough to explain this without video, though.
You think all block charge plays involve the restricted area in college basketball?

You think in real time at game speed all calls are cut and dry? You think officials never have to make an educated guess, even the best officials in the world?

If you ever come to a camp run by Tony Brothers and Leroy Richardson, I would love to hear the conversations you have with them.

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  #70 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 15, 2019, 03:27am
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Don't you get nuance? In NCAA, restricted area B/C plays are cut and dry, because there is a basic sequence of decisions, but I did not say that there are no non-restricted area plays. I said "If out (of the restricted area), I would proceed to determine whether the defender was legal." This means that B/C plays can occur outside the restricted area as well. I would use the criteria of legal guarding position to determine whether the contact is a block or charge. If I know what to look for (did defender beat offensive player to the spot before offensive player went airborne?), B/C plays are relatively easy.

It's plays where there is possible traveling (or another violation) before the foul that can get difficult. As L, I wI'll most likely be looking at the defender from the feet up to determine LGP, so it would fall to T and/or C to pick up travels, depending on angles. This would be a case where reaching would be completely acceptable, because I might not have a proper angle to rule on both fouls and traveling from my primary area.
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  #71 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 15, 2019, 03:32am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCat View Post
Good luck to you. Something about a horse and water...let me know where you are in say 10 years. I should be more patient...however, you lose me when you say there are no 50/50 calls...You need to learn that there are and not split hairs.... If you are In my crew one of first things I’m going to tell you...be aware of what we call. If I call a charge at one end and you have similar play....(0/50 or even 55-45.) call it same. I don’t expect you take bullet for me if I completely butcher it. Get it right.”
You saying there’s no 50/50 calls shows your lack of experience..You won’t move up nor should you with this view. Lot of things are black and white.Those are the easy things. Can you SEE and referee the GRAY areas...
I only said that there are no 50/50 B/C calls in NCAA because of the restricted area. This means that defender in restricted area with illegal contact (and no unnatural position /motion by offensive player) = block, defender outside with illegal contact = charge if defender is legal, otherwise block. I did not say that there are no 50/50 calls in general, just for a specific situation.
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  #72 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 15, 2019, 08:39am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
I only said that there are no 50/50 B/C calls in NCAA because of the restricted area. This means that defender in restricted area with illegal contact (and no unnatural position /motion by offensive player) = block, defender outside with illegal contact = charge if defender is legal, otherwise block. I did not say that there are no 50/50 calls in general, just for a specific situation.
Hmmmm:
Quote:
In NCAA, no block charge play is 50/50, because of the restricted area arc...
So there are no 50/50 block/charge calls outside of the restricted area? And I guess you've never picked up a play late. You ALWAYS know if the defender was legal b/c you see everything all the time?

How many NCAA games have you worked that you are able to tell us what does or doesn't occur in an NCAA game?
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Last edited by Raymond; Tue Jan 15, 2019 at 08:42am.
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  #73 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 15, 2019, 11:03am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
Don't you get nuance?
I'll be over here on my fainting couch.
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  #74 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 15, 2019, 11:24am
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Raymond, re-read post #70. I may not always know what is happening, but I can pickup my secondary defenders and identify their actions and legal/illegal position. I make B/C decisions based on their location (irrelevant for NFHS) and legality. This is why block/charge plays are simple for me (not necessarily easy, because there are moving bodies at high speeds).
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  #75 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 15, 2019, 11:49am
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I'll be over here on my fainting couch.
Move over, Rich, make room for me.
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