Reaching out of your area

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Raymond

I have the defender walking into shooter's right elbow.

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So he got fouled twice?

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Raymond

I have the defender walking into shooter's right elbow.

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If there is anything it is the "walking into him" stuff.....and, as you mentioned, the team's getting creamed so I can understand a call. still not so sure from other side of floor.

[thedewed]

if players and coaches knew that some officials cared about their egos more than getting it right, they'd puke. I can understand this a little bit, but if you are 100% sure and suspect the others have been straight-lined at a minimum, go get it. If it clearly created an advantage, go get it. It's more important to be principled in calling the game than looking out for your own politics.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BigCat

If there is anything it is the "walking into him" stuff.....and, as you mentioned, the team's getting creamed so I can understand a call. still not so sure from other side of floor.

As I mentioned earlier, I believe that is a former NBA ref (Tommy Nunez?). They believe in officials with open looks coming to get plays. There is no way for Lead or Trail to see that contact.

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[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Raymond

As I mentioned earlier, I believe that is a former NBA ref (Tommy Nunez?). They believe in officials with open looks coming to get plays. There is no way for Lead or Trail to see that contact.

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I can’t tell if it’s him or not...but if it is then he’s earned the right to do what he did. I’m not sure why you say trail can’t see contact...he certainly should..he’s got to work for the angle but nothing crazy going on here...

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by thedewed

if players and coaches knew that some officials cared about their egos more than getting it right, they'd puke. I can understand this a little bit, but if you are 100% sure and suspect the others have been straight-lined at a minimum, go get it. If it clearly created an advantage, go get it. It's more important to be principled in calling the game than looking out for your own politics.

You will learn as you age grasshopper. It’s not about my politics or any. If it’s a train wreck or an obvious foul ...really really obvious that everybody in gym sees then do it. Game time and situations matter also. Just because you think your partner ,in his primary, missed a call isn’t for you to come running in.
You can screw up a game berry easily that way..

[youngump]

Originally Posted by BigCat

and, as you mentioned, the team's getting creamed so I can understand a call.

You're the second person who has mentioned this. Are you seriously suggesting that in D1 college basketball it's appropriate to start calling a lopsided game because one team is down 18 early in the first half or am I missing something?

[ilyazhito]

To me personally, time and score is irrelevant when making calls. The rules and casebook (approved rulings) do not mention that one should change calls based on time and score, so doing that would not be game management, but game manipulation. It is not my business whether the game is competitive or a laugher, my only issue is to make sure that players play legally and safely.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

To me personally, time and score is irrelevant when making calls.

That may be all fine and dandy until one gets to the last minutes of a close game. Intentional fouls? Fouls to simply stop the clock? Deliberate off ball fouls? Delay of game? Strategic timeouts? Hack a Shaq? Crazed coaches? Situations that were unimpressive and relatively benign in the first thirty minutes take on a different and possibly "hyper" meaning in the last two minutes.

For example, slight touch contact that doesn't put a player at a disadvantage in the first thirty minutes and is ignored as incidental becomes a method for one team to stop the clock and slow the game down in the last two minutes. Don't call this same contact a foul in the last two minutes and you'll have the players killing each other to get a call, which could escalate into a fight.

C'mon ilyazhito. You're better than this. You're off your game. What's wrong with you today? Get up on the wrong side of the bed?

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by youngump

You're the second person who has mentioned this. Are you seriously suggesting that in D1 college basketball it's appropriate to start calling a lopsided game because one team is down 18 early in the first half or am I missing something?

You are missing something...and adding things..Nobody said “start calling a lopsided game.” I did not and do not like the C going across the floor here for this call. Raymond mentioned he’s an NBA fellow and the score. I’d like to get every call right...every time. Right or wrong, if a team’s getting pummeled.. I sure don’t want to miss an obvious foul call vs the team getting pummeled. NBA training and score coujd have influenced his decision to cross floor.
Experience will explain this more and better than I can..

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

To me personally, time and score is irrelevant when making calls. The rules and casebook (approved rulings) do not mention that one should change calls based on time and score, so doing that would not be game management, but game manipulation. It is not my business whether the game is competitive or a laugher, my only issue is to make sure that players play legally and safely.

What you call and what you don’t call is called judgment...plenty of folks can read the rule book and case book (although very few do it enough). Then you have to be able to referee...

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BigCat

Then you have to be able to referee ...

Watch out. I've got a club and I know how to use it.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by BigCat

You are missing something...and adding things..Nobody said “start calling a lopsided game.” I did not and do not like the C going across the floor here for this call.

You said that this call was more understandable because the team was getting creamed. I'm having trouble reconciling that statement with the idea that you're going to keep calling a fair game. Either the fact that the team is behind matters or it doesn't. And if it matters then you are no longer calling a fair game.

I'm also a little bit skeptical about the idea that down 18 early in the game in college is getting creamed. In this particular game, that 18 point lead turned into a 3 point lead before halftime.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by youngump

You said that this call was more understandable because the team was getting creamed. I'm having trouble reconciling that statement with the idea that you're going to keep calling a fair game. Either the fact that the team is behind matters or it doesn't. And if it matters then you are no longer calling a fair game.

I'm also a little bit skeptical about the idea that down 18 early in the game in college is getting creamed. In this particular game, that 18 point lead turned into a 3 point lead before halftime.

I did not like the call. I did not watch the game. Experience will be your best teacher. I’m trying to reconcile why he thought it was necessary to cross floor. 1st half is early for game management mode. There will be times when the score is a factor in what you call or don’t call. You will miss calls, I wil miss calls. If a team is getting pummeled I’m more likely to step in if you just blew a call. Again, experience will tell you when to do it or not. This may have not been right time.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

To me personally, time and score is irrelevant when making calls. The rules and casebook (approved rulings) do not mention that one should change calls based on time and score, so doing that would not be game management, but game manipulation. It is not my business whether the game is competitive or a laugher, my only issue is to make sure that players play legally and safely.

30 point blow-out, 50/50 block charge play that can go either way in real time. You're going to put the foul on the team losing by 30?

Team A is down by 2 in the last 10 seconds, A1 drives to the basket and incurs contact that has both been passed on and called on earlier plays in the game. What are you going to decide if A1 misses the shot? What are you going to decide if A1 makes the shot?

As far as the play being discussed here. That team is down by 18 points, on the road. You can't miss fouls committed against that team. That was a foul that was missed by the Lead and Trail b/c there were stacked to the contact.

Your "strictly by the book" mindset will work for you at the HS school level. If you ever start working NCAA basketball (I'll speak for this region of the country), you'll see that mindset starting to shift. NCAA supervisors want officials who have common sense and make good decisions.