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-   -   Reaching out of your area (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/104279-reaching-out-your-area.html)

ballgame99 Wed Jan 09, 2019 01:06pm

Reaching out of your area
 
Last night I am C, not much going on in my PCA, last second shot at the end of the 3rd quarter, 3 point shot goes up just below the FT line extended, which just happened to be directly across the court from me and my line of sight. (IE I have a great angle). I take a glance at it. I see the defender CLEARLY foul the shooter across the arm. I KNOW this is a foul, but I also know this is not my call. I wait, expecting a whistle from the trail, shooter comes all the way down, no whistle from Trail... I blow. Neither coach says a word, not even a groan from the crowd. Everyone saw this foul. Coach of the shooter actually commented that this was a great call (because he knew it wasn't my call to make but I did anyway).

Needless to say my partner wasn't happy.

When is it appropriate to reach out of your area? Does it have to be a flagrant or technical foul situation? Am I the worst partner ever? I've always read on here that you don't come that far out of your PCA unless it is a "crew saver". I felt like this fit the bill.

JRutledge Wed Jan 09, 2019 01:11pm

You can reach out of your area if you are right and it is rare. But you better be right.

What did your partner say? Did he think it was clearly a foul? Did he think it was marginal or not a foul at all?

Also, that is a rather long way to get a foul from the C. So it has to be very accurate or in transition on some level. I am not sure what you described either was a crew saving call.

Peace

BillyMac Wed Jan 09, 2019 01:19pm

Be Late, Be Right, Be Needed ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1028495)
You can reach out of your area if you are right and it is rare. But you better be right.

Agree. From my pregame: Stay in your primary. Something must be very obvious to come out of your primary. If something is there that really needs to be called, call it. Be late. Be right. Be needed.

UNIgiantslayers Wed Jan 09, 2019 01:27pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1028495)
I am not sure what you described either was a crew saving call.

Peace

I am not sure I agree with that. If it ends up being a 2 or 3 point game in the wrong direction, this no-call would've had an impact on the game. We can agree to disagree though. I would absolutely agree with the rest of what you said. That is a LONG way across the court.

jeremy341a Wed Jan 09, 2019 01:39pm

IMO Primary coverage area does not equal exclusive coverage area. I have no problem if you come and get it out of my area bc I know you're not doing that unless you are 100% certain. Isn't getting it right more important that someone only fishing in their own pond? It is to me.

JRutledge Wed Jan 09, 2019 01:47pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by UNIgiantslayers (Post 1028498)
I am not sure I agree with that. If it ends up being a 2 or 3 point game in the wrong direction, this no-call would've had an impact on the game. We can agree to disagree though. I would absolutely agree with the rest of what you said. That is a LONG way across the court.

But what if the partner felt there was a flop or the contact was exaggerated by the shooter (they tend to do that)? What if he saw the entire play and felt it was not something to be called? That is why I asked what did his partner say? And being that it is a long way, he has to be right. That means that the Lead possibly passed on that foul as well. So now two officials passed on this potentially and you came in to make that call. Just saying, be careful with that. Then if he passed on the foul, that is on him, not you. If you are wrong, then it is on you and not him.

Peace

ballgame99 Wed Jan 09, 2019 01:50pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1028495)

What did your partner say? Did he think it was clearly a foul? Did he think it was marginal or not a foul at all?

Also, that is a rather long way to get a foul from the C. So it has to be very accurate or in transition on some level. I am not sure what you described either was a crew saving call.

Peace

Thanks for the input. He thought the kid flopped because he kicked his legs out, but the contact I saw and called was across the arm.

It was absolutely a long way to go, and that is how sure I am that it was a foul. In hindsight I wouldn't call it, just because I've been told that it would be more appropriate to let him deal with the consequences of missing a call if he messed it up.

And btw this ended up being a 1 possession game at the end.

UNIgiantslayers Wed Jan 09, 2019 01:52pm

I can get behind that. I'd be more interested in what the video showed. If it showed I was right, I would call that a crew saver if it awards a team at (a possible) 3 points. If not, I'm fishing outside of my pond. Either way, I'm going to be 100% on one that I'm going across the court for. There won't be any doubt in my mind.

LRZ Wed Jan 09, 2019 02:12pm

To some extent, this depends on who your partners are (familiar or never worked together before?) and what you pre-game. I only work 2-ref, and my pre-game always includes this: "I'm not territorial, so if you clearly see a foul in my primary, call it. Let's get it right."

I also disagree with this: " I've been told that it would be more appropriate to let him deal with the consequences of missing a call if he messed it up." The officials are a team, and the team bears the responsibility to get foul calls right. Don't guess, but if 100% sure? If I were your partner, I'd rather you make that call. Maybe I was straight-lined; maybe I was looking up top and could not see lower body contact.

IMO/YMMV.

BillyMac Wed Jan 09, 2019 02:48pm

You Fish On Your Side ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jeremy341a (Post 1028499)
Isn't getting it right more important that someone only fishing in their own pond?

Quote:

Originally Posted by UNIgiantslayers (Post 1028502)
I'm fishing outside of my pond.

Brings to mind Lake Webster, right across the Massachusetts state line, otherwise known by its Native American Algonquian name, Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubuna. Translation is, "You fish on your side, I'll fish on my side, and no one shall fish in the middle".

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped..._long_name.jpg

JRutledge Wed Jan 09, 2019 02:49pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by LRZ (Post 1028503)
I also disagree with this: " I've been told that it would be more appropriate to let him deal with the consequences of missing a call if he messed it up." The officials are a team, and the team bears the responsibility to get foul calls right. Don't guess, but if 100% sure? If I were your partner, I'd rather you make that call. Maybe I was straight-lined; maybe I was looking up top and could not see lower body contact.

IMO/YMMV.

We are a team, but we are still individuals that have to make individual judgments. You are not being a good teammate if I pass on something that I clearly saw as not needing my whistle. So if you come in and get that and I adamantly disagree, you did not do your teammate very well. And in this case, the official said that he felt the shooter kicked out his leg (been emphasized at multiple levels) and did not feel it was a foul. Now you have told him and everyone that you do not trust him or that you have to come and get other plays that you did not see or were not looking at. I always make it very clear to coaches that there are plays I am not looking at what my partners are looking at. I even tell coaches that my partner will gladly explain things to a coach when they get a chance.

I am also going to say it this way. The higher you go up, the more you will have to realize they will not treat you as a team if the fall out happens. There was a play this past postseason where we had a major screw up in a game that took a team to the State Finals were an official "thought" he saw something and made a call on whether a shot was a 2 or a 3 at a very critical point of the game. He was the C and came across the lane to call a 3 point shot a 2. Then on video, it showed this official who as the C that was coming out of his primary was totally wrong and saw something that was clearly not there (this was a college floor with two 3 point lines). There was one official on the crew that had no idea what happened because he was the lead. He would not have been looking there for a foot on the line near the top of the key. The lead in this play could not give any information and no one expected him to. The talk was about the official the two officials involved, the one that made the call to change the 3 to a 2 and the official that had the primary. Now that play was certainly a play they could come together on because it was only an issue of points. But in a foul situation, you do not have a lot of options to take it back if your partner totally disagrees with you that is in his primary. This was not a rules situation either where we can make sure we are applying the rule properly. This is a foul that you cannot just take back. So you better be right and if you do not "beat the tape" that might be the reason you assignments or further opportunities might be evaluated. So yes we are a team, but when they fire one of you or suspend one of you, they are not going to do that as a team. I can tell you as a college official, I cannot go by "we are a team" mantra and save me from judgment mistakes I make. Just saying, be careful. Was it an ant or an elephant? And we cannot always use the croud reaction as a guage for a good call or not. We can be totally right and still they think we got it wrong.

Peace

BillyMac Wed Jan 09, 2019 02:55pm

Just What Makes That Little Old Ant, Think He’ll Move That Rubber Tree Plant ...
 
(Frank Sinatra, 1959)

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1028506)
Was it an ant or an elephant?

Agree. This isn't written in my pregame guidelines, but I use it all the time.

JRutledge Wed Jan 09, 2019 02:58pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1028507)
(Frank Sinatra, 1959)



Agree. This isn't written in my pregame guidelines, but I use it all the time.

You know this is not in the NF Rulebook or the NCAA Rulebook. ;)

Peace

griblets Wed Jan 09, 2019 02:59pm

If I'm the T, and I missed it, I would want you to come get it. Some won't. Got to know your partners. For me, it's not about who's right, it's about what's right. Just be sure you're right when you go that far!

Raymond Wed Jan 09, 2019 03:21pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1028506)
... Was it an ant or an elephant? ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1028507)
(Frank Sinatra, 1959)



Agree. This isn't written in my pregame guidelines, but I use it all the time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1028508)
You know this is not in the NF Rulebook or the NCAA Rulebook. ;)

Peace

Now that's funny.


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