6 on the Court -- unnoticed...

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Not true. The NFHS defines participating in the Case Book ruling already cited in this thread.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

10.2.2 SITUATION: With Team A leading 51 to 50, a held ball is called. A6 properly reports and enters the game. Time is then called by Team A. The clock shows two seconds remaining in the game. After play is resumed by a throw-in, the officials: (a) recognize that A has six players competing, but cannot get the clock stopped; or (b) do not notice Team A has six players on the court. Following the throw-in, time expires. Team B now reports to the officials that Team A had six players on the court.
RULING: In (a), since one of the officials had knowledge that Team A had six players participating simultaneously and this was detected prior to time expiring, a technical foul is assessed against Team A. In (b), since it was not recognized by either official, but was called to their attention after time had expired, it is too late to assess any penalty.

Time expired. Everybody is bench personnel. It said time expired, not ball is dead (even though it was). Two variables. Water muddied.

10.5.3 SITUATION: A5 has just received his/her fifth foul of the game. A5 (a) is erroneously permitted to remain in the game for another two minutes before the scorer realizes the mistake; or (b) leaves the game after the coach is notified of the disqualification. At the intermission between the third and fourth quarter, A5 reports as a substitute and subsequently enters the game. RULING: In (a), as soon as the error is discovered, the player is removed from the game, no penalties are assessed. In (b), A5 will not actually "participate" until the ball becomes live. If detected prior to the ball becoming live, A5 would be directed to the bench and no penalty assessed unless the official deemed it was a deliberate attempt to circumvent the rules. If detected after the ball becomes live, it is a technical foul charged directly to the head coach resulting in the loss of coaching-box
privileges. The player is immediately removed from the game and Team B is awarded two free-throws and the ball. (2-11-5 Note 2)

Not about extra players. First (note "prior") live ball sets up the penalty, even if the disqualified player is discovered during a subsequent dead ball. Anything prior to first live ball is not penalized, that's all the ruling states. After that it's open season for a penalty, live ball or dead ball. If the disqualified player eventually leaves the game (undiscovered) and becomes bench personnel, then it may be too late to penalize.

If during a dead ball after the ball first becomes live with the disqualified player (coach was informed) on the court (let's say after an out of bounds violation), the disqualified player (we can call him a player, he's one of five) is discovered, are you not going to penalize, or just send him back to the bench?

[BryanV21]

Doesn't the line "A5 will not actually "participate" until the ball becomes live" solve our issue here?

[bucky]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

Doesn't the line "A5 will not actually "participate" until the ball becomes live" solve our issue here?

It definitely goes in my pile of reasons to not penalize during a dead ball.

To answer Billy's last question, indeed, I would not penalize. In the case, the player went 2 minutes and then it was discovered. A DQ'd player (barring deliberate attempt to circumvent rules), participating in a game, should not, IMO, ever be penalized as it was the fault of some game official (referee, umpires, table, scorers, etc.).

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bucky

I would not penalize. In the case, the player went 2 minutes and then it was discovered. A DQ'd player (barring deliberate attempt to circumvent rules), participating in a game, should not, IMO, ever be penalized as it was the fault of some game official (referee, umpires, table, scorers, etc.).

I wouldn't either (penalize the player). The player is never penalized for participating after being disqualified. It's the coach who is penalized with a technical foul. It was the coach who decided to put said player back in the game after he was informed by an official that his player was disqualified (definition of disqualified equals coach informed). It was not an error by the referee, umpires, table, scorers, the police officer in the corner, or the hot single mom who runs the concession stand. If the officials, or table, screwed up (not in this case) and the coach was never informed, then the player was never officially disqualified and, of course, there would be penalty for anybody. In this case, the coach screwed up and gets the penalty, not the disqualified player.

Want to give it another try bucky?

Originally Posted by BillyMac

If during a dead ball after the ball first becomes live with the disqualified player (coach was informed) on the court (let's say after an out of bounds violation), the disqualified player (we can call him a player, he's one of five) is discovered, are you not going to penalize, or just send him back to the bench?

[bucky]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I wouldn't either (penalize the player). The player is never penalized for participating after being disqualified. It's the coach who is penalized with a technical foul. It was the coach who decided to put said player back in the game after he was informed by an official that his player was disqualified (definition of disqualified equals coach informed). It was not an error by the referee, umpires, table, scorers, the police officer in the corner, or the hot single mom who runs the concession stand. If the officials, or table, screwed up (not in this case) and the coach was never informed, then the player was never officially disqualified and, of course, there would be penalty for anybody. In this case, the coach screwed up and gets the penalty, not the disqualified player.

Want to give it another try bucky?

I won't call it another try, perhaps, just more info. The definition of "disqualified" does not equal the coach being informed. Being "officially disqualified" involves the coach being informed. Can't believe I just split hairs on that one but whateves...

So, if the coach was informed, then it could be considered a deliberate attempt to circumvent the rules and a technical foul would be warranted, whether the ball is live or dead.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bucky

The definition of "disqualified" does not equal the coach being informed. Being "officially disqualified" involves the coach being informed.

I'm not sure what the difference is?

4-14-2: A player is officially disqualified and becomes bench personnel
when the coach is notified by an official.

Originally Posted by bucky

... if the coach was informed, then it could be considered a deliberate attempt to circumvent the rules and a technical foul would be warranted ...

Originally Posted by BillyMac

10.5.3 SITUATION ... unless the official deemed it was a deliberate attempt to circumvent the rules.

How does an official "deem" this? Coaches aren't perfect and occasionally make honest mistakes. Good question for another thread.

[bucky]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I'm not sure what the difference is?

4-14-2: A player is officially disqualified and becomes bench personnel
when the coach is notified by an official.

NFHS created 2 parts so only they would know.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

How does an official "deem" this? Coaches aren't perfect and occasionally make honest mistakes. Good question for another thread.

Not sure as all people are different. You as an official have to determine the honesty of the mistake. I am only responding to the case whereby the extra player was DQ and it is a live/dead/live ball. If kid/table/coach were notified, and extra player was discovered on court during a dead ball in the live/dead/live case, it could easily be deemed by an official to be deliberate by the coach. It could be deemed this by process of elimination (IOW, what else could it be?) and, perhaps more importantly, can be used, by rule, as the means to assessing a T during this "strange" dead ball period that has been discussed. An official would not even have to give the reason for the T. Everyone, including the coach (unless the coach had read this thread and was a very experienced official) would understand (or at least think) that the T was for having an extra player on the floor. No one would say a word about not being able to give the T because it is a dead ball. And, that one official who read this thread, would also not be able to question it because he/she would now be familiar with the rule regarding the deliberate attempt to circumvent the rules. Let's go one step further and pretend, hypothetically, that there was another official(he/she did not read this thread) on the planet that questioned giving the T during that dead ball period. You could look like a rule God and explain that you deemed that the coach was deliberately circumventing (use those words to accentuate your God-like knowledge) the rules and ergo, the T was allowed during the dead ball.

Can't believe I did it again. Another fine for too many words coming my way. Sheesh.

[Freddy]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

Doesn't the line "A5 will not actually "participate" until the ball becomes live" solve our issue here?

Yes it does.
My take on it after consideration of all the above discussion:

#1. Before ball becomes live = not "participating"
#2. After ball becomes live = "participating"
#3. During a dead ball period after that = still "participating", therefore meriting a technical foul . . .
. . . because the parameters of "will not actually "participate" until the ball becomes live" have been met if discovered after #2.
Anytime after that, A5, when discovered, is still, without a definition to the contrary anywhere in the books, A5 is still "participating" if out on the court.
That's what I'm thinkin', for now. Though I do respect those who disagree.

[Nevadaref]

This is the part of 10.5.3 which provides a clear definition of what it means to participate in an NFHS contest: "In (b), A5 will not actually "participate" until the ball becomes live. If detected prior to the ball becoming live, A5 would be directed to the bench and no penalty assessed..."

This rule 10-6-3 also needs to be penalized while being violated. Therefore, it must be caught during a live ball.

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

This is the part of 10.5.3 which provides a clear definition of what it means to participate in an NFHS contest: "In (b), A5 will not actually "participate" until the ball becomes live. If detected prior to the ball becoming live, A5 would be directed to the bench and no penalty assessed..."

This rule 10-6-3 also needs to be penalized while being violated. Therefore, it must be caught during a live ball.

I agree.

While it may not be fair not to assess the technical foul, it is what it is. Sorry, coach.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

This is the part of 10.5.3 which provides a clear definition of what it means to participate in an NFHS contest: "In (b), A5 will not actually "participate" until the ball becomes live. If detected prior to the ball becoming live, A5 would be directed to the bench and no penalty assessed..."

You're extrapolating, (which can sometimes work, but in my opinion, not here). It doesn't say what can happen after that (after the ball becomes live), like when it becomes dead. And it only deals with one player (A5) who just entered the game. It doesn't say if the other four players were participating before the ball became live, or while it was dead. I also wonder why participate is in quotes? Why isn't it just participate, with no quotes?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I also wonder why participate is in quotes? Why isn't it just participate, with no quotes?

I went to some grammar web sites and came up with these:

1) It is meant to denote a strange or unusual use of the word.

My favorite:

2) When you want to imply that the quoted word is dubious.

Quotation marks - Grammarist

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by freddy

my take on it after consideration of all the above discussion:
#1. Before ball becomes live = not "participating"
#2. After ball becomes live = "participating"
#3. During a dead ball period after that = still "participating", therefore meriting a technical foul . . .
. . . Because the parameters of "will not actually "participate" until the ball becomes live" have been met if discovered after #2.
Anytime after that, a5, when discovered, is still, without a definition to the contrary anywhere in the books, a5 is still "participating" if out on the court.
That's what i'm thinkin', for now. Though i do respect those who disagree.

Haven't Heard This Interpretation Yet, I Don't Think

Sounds similar to my post:

Originally Posted by BillyMac

First (note "prior") live ball sets up the penalty, even if the disqualified player is discovered during a subsequent dead ball. Anything prior to first live ball is not penalized, that's all the ruling states. After that it's open season for a penalty, live ball or dead ball. If the disqualified player eventually leaves the game (undiscovered) and becomes bench personnel, then it may be too late to penalize.

I hope it's similar, they're starting to wear me down and I need a "participating" buddy.