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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jul 31, 2017, 10:15am
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6 on the Court -- unnoticed...

NFHS

Blue scores and calls timeout.

Blue comes back onto the court with 6 player. No one notices. Ball is inbounded, Blue steals and scores. White calls time out. Three White coaches come screaming out at the referees that Blue had 6 players.

Is the basket erased?

Can the officials rely on anyone besides themselves to decide there really were 6 on the court?

Can it still be penalized if not noticed by the officials until after the TO is granted?
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Old Mon Jul 31, 2017, 10:40am
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Too late. Must be discovered while the 6th player is participating.
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Old Mon Jul 31, 2017, 10:46am
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No, No, and No.

Once the TO is granted, the offending act in question is no longer occurring.
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Old Mon Jul 31, 2017, 11:12am
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Thanks all, that's what I thought -- but I'm biased as my son was playing.

In case anyone is interested in where the question came from, this was in the final minute of a 2 pt game in a tournament elimination bracket. The basket (which was erased) would have tied the game. (I don't know who they relied on to decide that there were 6 on the floor -- it might have been the scorer, it might have been the tournament official who came onto the floor. Or perhaps they saw that there were 6 walking off the court after the TO.)

While I thought that was the technical answer, it's hard to complain too much about the ultimate fairness, as my son's team did have 6 on the floor, and its hard to argue the steal was not aided by the extra player.
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Old Mon Jul 31, 2017, 11:28am
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Unfortunate all around. It was handled incorrectly after the fact AND it was 100% preventable by the officials...counting the bodies on the floor every inbound is pretty much Officiating 101.
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Old Mon Jul 31, 2017, 11:46am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bad Zebra View Post
Unfortunate all around. It was handled incorrectly after the fact AND it was 100% preventable by the officials...counting the bodies on the floor every inbound is pretty much Officiating 101.
I agree it is preventable by the officials, but it is also preventable by the teams. Often this happens when teams are confused and think something has happen or did not happen and they come onto the floor at the time we have already done our job. So yes, we need to take our times, but the teams are to blame if they do not have the right number of players on the court. It occasionally happens at all levels for that reason.

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Old Mon Jul 31, 2017, 11:48am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
Too late. Must be discovered while the 6th player is participating.
Correct response from Camron. The wording used in the penalty section of the rule is "penalized if discovered while being violated." That means the officials notice it while the ball is live.

Additionally, here is the Case Book play supporting that. Note that after time expires it is too late to penalize this not because the game is over, but because the ball has become dead.

10.2.2 SITUATION:

With Team A leading 51 to 50, a held ball is called. A6 *properly reports and enters the game. Time is then called by Team A. The clock shows two seconds remaining in the game. After play is resumed by a throw-in, the officials: (a) recognize that A has six players competing, but cannot get the clock stopped; or (b) do not notice Team A has six players on the court. Following the throw-in, time expires. Team B now reports to the officials that Team A had six players on the court.

RULING: In (a), since one of the officials had knowledge that Team A had six players participating simultaneously and this was detected prior to time expiring, a technical foul is assessed against Team A. In (b), since it was not recognized by either official, but was called to their attention after time had expired, it is too late to assess any penalty.

Last edited by Nevadaref; Mon Jul 31, 2017 at 11:53am.
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Old Mon Jul 31, 2017, 12:27pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by so cal lurker View Post
Thanks all, that's what I thought -- but I'm biased as my son was playing.

In case anyone is interested in where the question came from, this was in the final minute of a 2 pt game in a tournament elimination bracket. The basket (which was erased) would have tied the game. (I don't know who they relied on to decide that there were 6 on the floor -- it might have been the scorer, it might have been the tournament official who came onto the floor. Or perhaps they saw that there were 6 walking off the court after the TO.)

While I thought that was the technical answer, it's hard to complain too much about the ultimate fairness, as my son's team did have 6 on the floor, and its hard to argue the steal was not aided by the extra player.
Even if they noticed the 6 players on the court before any time-out was granted, you still cannot erase the basket unless they are playing under NBA rules.
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Old Mon Jul 31, 2017, 05:51pm
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More Than Five ???

Here is the rule that it’s based on: NFHS 10-1-6: A team shall not: Have more than five team members participating simultaneously. If discovered while being violated.

Here are some situations:

A) Head coach of Team B requests, and is granted, a timeout, at which point he immediately complains to the officials that Team A has six team members participating. The sole purpose of his timeout is to call attention to the officials that Team A has six team members participating. Officials, who have been unaware that six team members have been participating up until that point, count six Team A members on the court before they head into their timeout huddle. The ball is dead, and the clock is stopped. What’s the call? (Please note that this is not during an intermission, like the caseplay, but is during a timeout.)

B) Team B head coach yells to nearest official that there are six Team A players participating. Official sounds whistle to stop the action to count the players and discovers that there are six Team A team members on the court during this dead ball, clock stopped, situation. What's the call?

C) Team A has six team members participating, which goes unobserved by the officials. Official calls a travel violation on Team A. There are no substitutions after the whistle. Before administering the throw in, officials observe that Team A has six team members participating. The ball is dead, and the clock is stopped. What’s the call?

D) Team A has six players on the court. Officials are unaware of this infraction. Team A has been awarded two free throws. The first free throw is missed. No substitutions are made. Before bouncing the ball to the free thrower for his second free throw, the officials realize that Team A has six players on the court. The ball is dead, and the clock is stopped. What’s the call?

E) The last Team A free throw attempt is successful. The clock hasn't started. Six team members on Team A are setting up a full court press. Officials become aware of the extra player before the ball is at the disposal of Team B for a run-the-endline throwin. The ball is dead, and the clock is stopped. What’s the call?

F) Team A has six players on the court. Officials are unaware of this infraction. Team A has been awarded two free throws. The first free throw is missed. No substitutions are made. After bouncing the ball to the free thrower, and with the ball at the free thrower's disposal for his second free throw, the officials realize that Team A has six players on the court. The ball is live, and the clock is stopped. What’s the call?

G) Team A scores a field goal. Six team members on Team A are setting up a full court press. Officials become aware of the extra player before the ball is at the disposal of Team B for a run-the-endline throwin. The ball is dead, and the clock is running. What’s the call?

What does participating mean?
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Old Tue Aug 01, 2017, 09:51am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
Correct response from Camron. The wording used in the penalty section of the rule is "penalized if discovered while being violated." That means the officials notice it while the ball is live.

Additionally, here is the Case Book play supporting that. Note that after time expires it is too late to penalize this not because the game is over, but because the ball has become dead.

10.2.2 SITUATION . . .
The bold/underlined text above is what I'm having a struggle with. It's not real clear that the conclusions stated can be supported by either logic or reason or common sense or the rule or casebook. Not trying to be obstinate, just trying to understand. Any help?
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Old Tue Aug 01, 2017, 10:19am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
What does participating mean?
I've been searching for some solid documentation that verifies that "participating" only applies when the ball is live. As in, a team cannot be penalized unless the six players on the court was discovered only while the ball is live. If discovered while the ball is dead, there's no penalty.

To press that interpretation into all the rules where "participation" is mentioned seems to stretch the rule beyond it's intent. 10-4-1, for instance. Or 3-1-1 NOTE, or 4-14-1, or 10-1-1, or 10-3-1. All of those penalties would surely be enforced if discovered being done by a player on the court during a dead ball after any period of live ball action, it seems. Right?

There was an old casebook citation, 10.5.3, which gives credence to "no penalty UNTIL the ball becomes live", but it leaves room for issuing a penalty during a dead ball after that point, it seems:

10.5.3 SITUATION: A5 has just received his/her fifth foul of the game. A5 (a) is erroneously permitted to remain in the game for
another two minutes before the scorer realizes the mistake; or (b) leaves the game after the coach is notified of the
disqualification. At the intermission between the third and fourth quarter, A5 reports as a substitute and subsequently enters the
game. RULING: In (a), as soon as the error is discovered, the player is removed from the game, no penalties are assessed. In
(b), A5 will not actually "participate" until the ball becomes live. If detected prior to the ball becoming live, A5 would be directed
to the bench and no penalty assessed unless the official deemed it was a deliberate attempt to circumvent the rules. If detected
after the ball becomes live, it is a technical foul
charged directly to the head coach resulting in the loss of coaching-box
privileges. The player is immediately removed from the game and Team B is awarded two free-throws and the ball. (2-11-5 Note
2)
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Last edited by Freddy; Tue Aug 01, 2017 at 10:24am.
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Old Tue Aug 01, 2017, 12:24pm
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Just saw a similar thread from several years ago that helped clarify for me somewhat. There Billy contributed with this:
https://forum.officiating.com/basket...tml#post878664
But it still didn't equate "discovered while being violated" with "while ball is live." I guess I'm still hung up on that, unless something else was meant by that statement previously posted in this current thread.
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Old Tue Aug 01, 2017, 12:32pm
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Find the rule which states when a substitute becomes a player IF THE ENTRY ISN'T LEGAL. It states when the ball becomes live. That is when the team member participates.

Additionally, there is the situation in which a team member with an illegal jersey (or not listed on the team roster) reports to the scorer as a substitute. If the scorer informs the officials of the problem at the time of the attempted entry, then the coach has the ability to withdraw the team member and avoid the penalty. This scenario was detailed in the NFHS Simplified & Illustrated book with the caption which read something like, "Number X won't participate."
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Old Tue Aug 01, 2017, 01:15pm
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Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
Find the rule which states when a substitute becomes a player IF THE ENTRY ISN'T LEGAL. It states when the ball becomes live. That is when the team member participates.
"If the entry is not legal, the substitute becomes a player when the ball becomes live." I get that.
If, however, that entry were a sixth player and it was discovered after the next whistle?
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Old Tue Aug 01, 2017, 03:22pm
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Originally Posted by Freddy View Post
"If the entry is not legal, the substitute becomes a player when the ball becomes live." I get that.
If, however, that entry were a sixth player and it was discovered after the next whistle?
Then it is too late to penalize the infraction, even though you know that it happened.
Keep this simple. A team member participates by becoming a player. The definition of a player is in the book along with how a team member becomes a player as well as ceases to be a player.
The six team members participating is a little cloudy because the extra member isn't a legal player, but is out on the floor when only players are permitted. That's actually the infraction and why we can't penalize when the ball isn't live such as during a lengthy susbstitution process with multiple members entering and exiting. We need a time when only players are allowed in order to penalize a non-player being on the court.
Certainly, there need to be clear demarcation points at which play starts and ends as well as for when it is too late to penalize things which happen yet were missed by the officials during the game. For participation, the NFHS has selected when the ball becomes live and dead as those points. Similar to correctable errors.
What you seem concerned about is the timing and want to penalize when the team members are still on the floor during the immediately ensuing dead ball period. It seems unfair to you as this point in time is so close to when the infraction occurred. So take it to the extreme. What about missing this during the final seconds of the second quarter and having it brought to your attention just prior to the jumpball for the first extra period? You obviously can't go back and you feel comfortable about that. Why? You know inherently there is a point at which it becomes too late, but you are just fuzzy as to when exactly that is.
For the NFHS, it is when the ball ceases being live. Now you know and need to make the mental shift to accept it.
That can be tough, but as I mentioned above, this is no different from the timeline for correctable errors. Once you pass the point of no return, it's over and you're done with it. It doesn't matter how soon after the deadline you catch the error or how egregious it was. Now apply the same mentality to six on the floor.
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