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  #91 (permalink)  
Old Fri Aug 11, 2017, 05:17pm
Courageous When Prudent
 
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My only problem with the thread was your focus on exam questions instead of coming to a conclusion about your options on the floor.

You had already established long ago, and nobody disputed you, that participating was not fully defined the rulebook

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Last edited by Raymond; Fri Aug 11, 2017 at 05:21pm.
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  #92 (permalink)  
Old Sat Aug 12, 2017, 10:06am
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Good Morning, What Happened Last Night ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
My only problem with the thread was your focus on exam questions instead of coming to a conclusion about your options on the floor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
If the actual (but quite rare) situation ever occurred on the court, I hope that I would interpret it the correct way, practically, and by the rulebook (they're not necessarily mutually exclusive).
If there was a "correct" way? Stupid NFHS rules editors.

Every call that we make should be (if possible) rule based (as if on a written exam). If not, it will be difficult for us to defend our calls when we get the phone call from our assigner early the following morning. When a coach loses a last second, one point game because (in his mind, forget about the missed layups, stupid fouls, bad coaching) the official "blew the call" (especially an unambiguous rule based call, not a subjective call) the situation can very quickly go up and down the chain of command: coach, athletic director, assigner, official. If the call was contrary to an unambiguous rule (not a subjective call) it will be a tough phone call to go along with our first cup of coffee in the morning.

Here's a typical written exam situation (rare, but it really happened). Several years ago, a conference championship game, one of our guys (trained by us, transferred to another board) who I worked with a dozen times, and whom I believed was an excellent official, when informed, while in the locker room immediately after the game (after leaving the vicinity of the court), that there was a scoring error and that the game was not a one point victory but should have gone into overtime, came back out to toss the jump ball for the overtime, that reversed the victory to the other team. It was more than phone calls, it made the front pages of various newspaper sports sections, naming the official, all over our small state.

The moral of the story, if possible, don't make up rules as you go along.

I hate "kicked" (unambiguous rule based, not subjective) rules, especially when I kick a rule, or the kicked rule involves me. I'm sure that we all do. From March, 2017:

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
My worst call of the season, and it wasn't even my call. Late in a game my partner (a highly regarded state tournament official) kicks a rule regarding a double free throw violation and how to penalize the violation. I wasn't aware of his call, because I was keeping my eye on my own primary, but I could tell from his voice and body language that he was only 95% certain of the call, especially in his dealing with two questions from the coach. After the game, discussing the call, we discovered that he kicked the rule, costing the losing team (in an overtime game) a free throw, maybe two free throws, and the arrow, near the end of regulation. I should have approached him with a "What did you have?" which would have saved us from kicking the rule. Instead, I just let him make his call, make his explanation to the coach, and I just put the ball in play as if he knew 100% what he was doing. The losing coach politely approached us in the locker room after the game with a question and we had to admit that we kicked the call ... I could have been a better partner.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 05:31pm.
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  #93 (permalink)  
Old Sat Aug 12, 2017, 11:44am
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Watch Me Pull A Rabbit Out Of My Hat ...

I'm now going to attempt to answer my own questions from an earlier post. This is the best I can do without an unambiguous NFHS definition of participating. My answers are based on what I've learned from this thread.

A) Head coach of Team B requests, and is granted, a timeout, at which point he immediately complains to the officials that Team A has six team members participating. The sole purpose of his timeout is to call attention to the officials that Team A has six team members participating. Officials, who have been unaware that six team members have been participating up until that point, count six Team A members on the court before they head into their timeout huddle. The ball is dead, and the clock is stopped. What’s the call? (Please note that this is not during an intermission, like the caseplay, but is during a timeout.)

No team technical foul. The ball is dead, and clock is stopped. The six team members are not participating.

B) Team B head coach yells to nearest official that there are six Team A players participating. Official sounds whistle to stop the action to count the players and discovers that there are six Team A team members on the court during this dead ball, clock stopped, situation. What's the call?

No team technical foul. The ball is dead, and clock is stopped. The six team members are not participating.

C) Team A has six team members participating, which goes unobserved by the officials. Official calls a travel violation on Team A. There are no substitutions after the whistle. Before administering the throw in, officials observe that Team A has six team members participating. The ball is dead, and the clock is stopped. What’s the call?

No team technical foul. The ball is dead, and clock is stopped. The six team members are not participating.

D) Team A has six players on the court. Officials are unaware of this infraction. Team A has been awarded two free throws. The first free throw is missed. No substitutions are made. Before bouncing the ball to the free thrower for his second free throw, the officials realize that Team A has six players on the court. The ball is dead, and the clock is stopped. What’s the call?

No team technical foul. The ball is dead, and clock is stopped. The six team members are not participating.

E) The last Team A free throw attempt is successful. The clock hasn't started. Six team members on Team A are setting up a full court press. Officials become aware of the extra player before the ball is at the disposal of Team B for a run-the-endline throwin. The ball is dead, and the clock is stopped. What’s the call?

I struggle, with this call. Does purpose and intent factor into this? Are six team members participating? It's very similar to G (below) but the clock isn't running.

F) Team A has six players on the court. Officials are unaware of this infraction. Team A has been awarded two free throws. The first free throw is missed. No substitutions are made. After bouncing the ball to the free thrower, and with the ball at the free thrower's disposal for his second free throw, the officials realize that Team A has six players on the court. The ball is live, and the clock is stopped. What’s the call?

The ball is live. Team technical foul for more than five team members are participating.

G) Team A scores a field goal. Six team members on Team A are setting up a full court press. Officials become aware of the extra player before the ball is at the disposal of Team B for a run-the-endline throwin. The ball is dead, and the clock is running. What’s the call?

The clock is running. Team technical foul for more than five team members are participating.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 03:43pm.
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  #94 (permalink)  
Old Sat Aug 12, 2017, 11:48am
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Furthermore ...

Made basket by Team A, immediate time-out by Team A is granted by the officials, officials notice six team members departing the floor for Team A. How do you handle it?

No team technical foul. The ball is dead, and clock is stopped. The six team members are not participating.

Multiple substitutions. All substitutes report and are legally beckoned. Extra team member is confused and stays on court, unnoticed by everybody. Ball put into play. Quick foul occurs. No substitutions. One and one free throws awarded. First free throw made. No substitutions. Extra team member discovered by officials (who don't know when the extra team member entered) during dead ball, clock stopped, after first free throw made while the ball is in the hands of the lead official.

No team technical foul. The ball is dead, and clock is stopped. The six team members are not participating.

I've also learned that individual substitutes who have reported to the scorekeeper and have been beckoned by the officials can't be charged with an individual substitute technical foul for not reporting or not being beckoned, even if more than five team members end up on the court. It's either a team technical foul for more than five team members participating (see previous posts in this thread), or send an extra team member back to the bench, unpenalized.

Also, I've learned that if the table tells the officials that there were six team members participating during a recent live ball, or clock running situation, that it's too late to penalize because the officials themselves must recognize the infraction during a live ball, or clock running situation. I believe that we can't seek help from the table counting players (the officials themselves must recognize the infraction), but that's not the main reason why we can't penalize, it's because it's too late, the ball is now dead and the clock is now stopped.

Not the exact situation (team, not table), but similar:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
10.2.2 SITUATION: With Team A leading 51 to 50, a held ball is called. A6 properly reports and enters the game. Time is then called by Team A. The clock shows two seconds remaining in the game. After play is resumed by a throw-in, the officials: (b) do not notice Team A has six players on the court. Following the throw-in, time expires. Team B now reports to the officials that Team A had six players on the court. RULING: In (b), since it was not recognized by either official, but was called to their attention after time had expired, it is too late to assess any penalty.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 03:45pm.
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  #95 (permalink)  
Old Sat Aug 12, 2017, 11:01pm
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I must have missed something obvious but why any focus on the clock running? Also, why can the table not be used for any assistance? That is in the rule book. Plus, if the table does recognize it during a live ball, they may hit the horn a few times, and then the ref blows his whistle making the ball dead. In that case, where it was discovered during a live ball, it becomes irrelevant because the ref blew his whistle making the ball dead? That seems illogical.

And not everything is covered by the rules, thus "The referee shall make decisions on any points not specifically covered in the rules."
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  #96 (permalink)  
Old Sun Aug 13, 2017, 09:06am
Courageous When Prudent
 
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Billy if the rule is that ambiguous how would you get in trouble?

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  #97 (permalink)  
Old Sun Aug 13, 2017, 11:21am
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Ambiguous ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
... if the rule is that ambiguous how would you get in trouble?
Only if, as some Forum members state (and if they're NFHS correct), that the rule is not ambiguous, but rather, set in stone, live ball, and only live ball, equals participating and penalize, period, end of discussion, take it to the bank, Happy Trails, Hi-Yo, Silver! Away!

I'm not that confident on my side of this debate (and that's my point). I can't cite any specific rule, or casebook play, that says we can penalize when the ball is live, and/or the clock is running. Almost all of my interpretations are my opinion (maybe with a little purpose and intent thrown in), and may in fact, be dead wrong. But I can say the same thing about the other side of this debate. Which again, is my point, that we need more information from the NFHS to correctly rule on some of these more than five situations.

My opinion is that there can be a gray area written test questions (I "play" the written test question "card" to demonstrate whether the situation is gray, or black and white, written test questions are really not too important in my little corner of Connecticut, open book, group discussion going over correct answers, all get full credit if they take the test, no matter how many wrong answers, and show up at one of over a dozen test review meeting sites) regarding some of these situations. I'm sure that other Forum members could opine that written test questions regarding some of these situations can be easily answered in a black or white manner (live ball, and only live ball, equals participate and penalize).

Keep in mind that some of my situations are quite rare in a real game. If my opinion is right, I can't get into any trouble (purpose and intent should cover me). If my opinion is wrong, I can be wrong on a written test question, and/or in a game situation.

It's not that I've never been wrong before.

My opinion: Stupid NFHS rule editors.

Others' opinion: NFHS rules regarding some of these more than five situations are as clear as day and are fine as they exist.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Aug 13, 2017 at 03:23pm.
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  #98 (permalink)  
Old Sun Aug 13, 2017, 11:23am
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Intent And Purpose ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky View Post
And not everything is covered by the rules, thus "The referee shall make decisions on any points not specifically covered in the rules."
... and "it is important to know the intent and purpose of a rule so that it may
be intelligently applied in each play situation. A player or a team should not be
permitted an advantage which is not intended by a rule. Neither should play be
permitted to develop which may lead to placing a player at a disadvantage not
intended by a rule."
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  #99 (permalink)  
Old Sun Aug 13, 2017, 11:31am
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Clock Running ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky View Post
... why any focus on the clock running?
Because it highlights my opinion versus the opinion of a few other Forum members. There are few instances where the clock is running and the ball is dead. I opine that officials can penalize for more than five in these situations because I believe that said team members are "participating" (the key to the rule), while others say officials can't.

We can all agree that we can penalize during live balls, even if the clock isn't running, no need for discussion on that. Team members are always participating under those circumstances

Dead ball with clock stopped? Even I agree that it's tough for any number of team members to participate under those circumstances, although I'm amiable to debate on that issue (dead ball after made free throw).

That just leaves a dead ball with the clock running up for debate. Can team members participate, and be penalized, under those circumstances?
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Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Aug 13, 2017 at 03:24pm.
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  #100 (permalink)  
Old Sun Aug 13, 2017, 11:38am
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Illogical ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky View Post
... why can the table not be used for any assistance? That is in the rule book ... if the table does recognize it during a live ball, they may hit the horn a few times, and then the ref blows his whistle making the ball dead. In that case, where it was discovered during a live ball, it becomes irrelevant because the ref blew his whistle making the ball dead? That seems illogical.
Just my point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
10.2.2 SITUATION: With Team A leading 51 to 50, a held ball is called. A6 properly reports and enters the game. Time is then called by Team A. The clock shows two seconds remaining in the game. After play is resumed by a throw-in, the officials: (b) do not notice Team A has six players on the court. Following the throw-in, time expires. Team B now reports to the officials that Team A had six players on the court. RULING: In (b), since it was not recognized by either official, but was called to their attention after time had expired, it is too late to assess any penalty.
Just for laughs, change "Team B" to "table".

Can no penalty be assessed because (1) it wasn't actually observed by an on court official, or because (2) it was to late to penalize (dead ball and clock stopped)?

To me, doubling up on the reasons not to penalize is overkill and makes the ruling unclear, correct, but unclear. As a chemist, we try to change one variable at a time, otherwise we muddy the waters (I did A and B, the procedure was successful, was the procedure successful because I did A, or because I did B? Well, at least it was successful, Why? I don't know.).

Or, (3) does the change to "table" change the situation and thus the interpretation (ruling)?

I have questions. I don't have answers. Others may have answers. Still others may just have opinions.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Aug 13, 2017 at 03:26pm.
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  #101 (permalink)  
Old Mon Aug 14, 2017, 01:27am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
We can all agree that we can penalize during live balls, even if the clock isn't running, no need for discussion on that. Team members are always participating under those circumstances
If live ball penalties can be assessed, regardless of the clock status, then why can't the same be said for dead ball penalties? Ergo, status of the clock is irrelevant.

To me, you have live/dead ball penalties and the clock's status has no affect.

You seem to be focusing on a specific dead ball period (after made basket). What about the others such as just before tip-off, before a throw-in, or before a free throw. When the officials see 5+ players on the court, there is no penalty, they just get rid of (so to speak) the extras. So why not apply the same concept to your dead ball period? Does that not seem logical?

Indeed, it is the only situation in which the ball status goes live-dead-live automatically but to me, it stands to reason to apply how it is handled in the same manner as the other situations.

Love your passion and not even trying to convince you of anything, only offering how I handle it given written words in the rule book. I will definitely throw this at our state interpreter and see what kind of feedback comes.
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  #102 (permalink)  
Old Mon Aug 14, 2017, 06:04am
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Participating ...

Good post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky View Post
... after made basket ... before tip-off, before a throw-in, or before a free throw.
When are team members participating? Certainly not during the dead ball period before the live ball of a jump ball or during the dead ball period before a live ball of a designated spot throwin.

NFHS rules, as presently written, don't use live ball/dead ball, or the status of the clock, to determine extra team member rulings (penalties, or send extra man back) but rather base the ruling on "participation", which it doesn't define. Other Forum members want to simply use live ball/dead ball, I just added the status of the clock into the mix for discussion purposes because I believe that team members can be participating during times other than live balls.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky View Post
I will definitely throw this at our state interpreter and see what kind of feedback comes.
Please do. My questions to trainers were just answered with, "Don't let it happen, do a better job of preventing six players from entering, or staying on the court".
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Last edited by BillyMac; Mon Aug 14, 2017 at 05:03pm.
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  #103 (permalink)  
Old Mon Aug 14, 2017, 07:09pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
NFHS rules, as presently written, don't use live ball/dead ball, or the status of the clock, to determine extra team member rulings (penalties, or send extra man back) but rather base the ruling on "participation", which it doesn't define.
Not true. The NFHS defines participating in the Case Book ruling already cited in this thread.
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  #104 (permalink)  
Old Tue Aug 15, 2017, 05:57am
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Bench Personnel ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
Not true. The NFHS defines participating in the Case Book ruling already cited in this thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
10.2.2 SITUATION: With Team A leading 51 to 50, a held ball is called. A6 properly reports and enters the game. Time is then called by Team A. The clock shows two seconds remaining in the game. After play is resumed by a throw-in, the officials: (a) recognize that A has six players competing, but cannot get the clock stopped; or (b) do not notice Team A has six players on the court. Following the throw-in, time expires. Team B now reports to the officials that Team A had six players on the court.
RULING: In (a), since one of the officials had knowledge that Team A had six players participating simultaneously and this was detected prior to time expiring, a technical foul is assessed against Team A. In (b), since it was not recognized by either official, but was called to their attention after time had expired, it is too late to assess any penalty.
Time expired. Everybody is bench personnel. It said time expired, not ball is dead (even though it was). Two variables. Water muddied.

10.5.3 SITUATION: A5 has just received his/her fifth foul of the game. A5 (a) is erroneously permitted to remain in the game for another two minutes before the scorer realizes the mistake; or (b) leaves the game after the coach is notified of the disqualification. At the intermission between the third and fourth quarter, A5 reports as a substitute and subsequently enters the game. RULING: In (a), as soon as the error is discovered, the player is removed from the game, no penalties are assessed. In (b), A5 will not actually "participate" until the ball becomes live. If detected prior to the ball becoming live, A5 would be directed to the bench and no penalty assessed unless the official deemed it was a deliberate attempt to circumvent the rules. If detected after the ball becomes live, it is a technical foul charged directly to the head coach resulting in the loss of coaching-box
privileges. The player is immediately removed from the game and Team B is awarded two free-throws and the ball. (2-11-5 Note 2)

Not about extra players. First (note "prior") live ball sets up the penalty, even if the disqualified player is discovered during a subsequent dead ball. Anything prior to first live ball is not penalized, that's all the ruling states. After that it's open season for a penalty, live ball or dead ball. If the disqualified player eventually leaves the game (undiscovered) and becomes bench personnel, then it may be too late to penalize.

If during a dead ball after the ball first becomes live with the disqualified player (coach was informed) on the court (let's say after an out of bounds violation), the disqualified player (we can call him a player, he's one of five) is discovered, are you not going to penalize, or just send him back to the bench?
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Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Aug 15, 2017 at 06:27am.
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  #105 (permalink)  
Old Tue Aug 15, 2017, 07:33am
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Doesn't the line "A5 will not actually "participate" until the ball becomes live" solve our issue here?
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