6 on the Court -- unnoticed...

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

All 3 officials have their backs to the bench missing illegal subs, but are sharp enough to recognize in the split second between a made basket and disposal that there are 6 men on the court?

"Stuff" happens, especially in middle school games in "Two Person Connecticut".

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

All 3 officials have their backs to the bench missing illegal subs, but are sharp enough to recognize in the split second between a made basket and disposal that there are 6 men on the court?

A head coach will certainly be glad to lend the officials a hand here. It's pretty hard to ignore a screaming coach.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

It's pretty hard to ignore a screaming coach.

That's why I always carried a roll of duct tape in my bag.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Which is precisely the argument that Nevadaref makes, and it's a pretty good argument.

It's too bad that the NFHS forces us to use words like "one" (meaning an individual official), and "might", and "infer", for something that can, if they wanted to, be made perfectly clear in Rule 4, Rule 10, or in a casebook play.



This is not a definition of participant, but rather is simply telling us that if a substitute doesn't report and/or be beckoned, that when the ball becomes live it's too late to penalize (he's now a legal player).

I need a reference to the opposite, a live ball that becomes dead.

In terms of live ball/dead ball, I'm sure that all of us would not penalize anybody if, after multiple substitutions, with the ball still dead, we realize that there are six team members on the court before we make the ball live. All of us would simply wait until there were only five team members on the court, again, with no penalty.

This is the situation that I'm hanging my hat on:

Team A scores a field goal. Six team members on Team A are setting up a full court press. Officials become aware of the extra player before the ball is at the disposal of Team B for a run-the-endline throwin. The ball is dead, and the clock is running. (NFHS 10-1-6: A team shall not: Have more than five team members participating simultaneously. If discovered while being violated.) Are six team members moving into positions to set up a full court press "participating", especially while the clock is running?

I believe so, and I'm sounding my whistle to charge a team technical foul for more than five team members participating.

Would other Forum members do the same in a real game situation, especially when one of the head coaches is yelling "They have six players on the court, that's a technical foul"?

Are we really going to sound our whistle to stop play, count the team members on the court at the time, meet with our partner to discuss, and inform the coach that we can't charge a technical foul because the ball is dead, and then politely ask the opposing coach to please remove one of his extra players without penalty? Are we all really going to do that?

In my example above, which may really happen if you officiate long enough, there's no doubt in my real game mind that six team members are playing and participating, especially since the clock is running, even though the ball is dead, so I'm sounding my whistle and charging a team technical foul while the ball is dead (and the clock is running) immediately after a goal. Six team members are moving into positions to set up a full court press while the clock is running, that's playing basketball, and that's participating. Come hell or high water, that's what I'm doing in my game (and if I discover the extra team member before the coach, I'm not waiting for the coach to start yelling about it).

That's my story and I'm sticking to it. If worse comes to worst, I'm going with the purpose and intent clause, but I hope that I don't have to take that tool out of my official's tool belt, and that 10-1-6 alone will handle the situation.



Hey, that's my line.

Stupid NFHS rules editors. © 2017 BillyMac

Since the ball is dead, the team members are not participating.
This is the same as moving into position prior to the jumpball. Once the ball becomes live on the throw-in or the jumpball, then they are participating.
What I don't like about the situation following a made goal is that the clock is running. I'll admit that this dead ball isn't like others because of that. However, I have advocated already in this thread that there exists a rules book solution which provides justice. Issue a substitute technical foul instead of a team technical foul. The substitute tech does not require observation during a live ball. It merely needs the failure of a sub to report or to be beckoned onto the court.
If BillyMac would utilize that rule, he could still penalize the offending team AND be correct within the rules book.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

... the situation following a made goal is that the clock is running. I'll admit that this dead ball isn't like others because of that. However, I have advocated already in this thread that there exists a rules book solution which provides justice. Issue a substitute technical foul instead of a team technical foul. The substitute tech does not require observation during a live ball. It merely needs the failure of a sub to report or to be beckoned onto the court.

In all of my scenerios, either all the substitutes reported and were beckoned, (maybe there were mulitple subsitutions and an extra player was inadvertently left on the court) or the officials had no idea who the extra team member was, or how he go there, so a subsitute technical foul is not a rule book soluton (even if it were, we don't know whom to charge it to).

Team A scores a field goal. Six team members on Team A are setting up a full court press. Officials become aware of the extra player before the ball is at the disposal of Team B for a run-the-endline throwin. The ball is dead, and the clock is running. (NFHS 10-1-6: A team shall not: Have more than five team members participating simultaneously. If discovered while being violated.) One of the head coaches is yelling "They have six players on the court, that's a technical foul". Are six team members moving into positions to set up a full court press "participating", especially while the clock is running?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

In all of my scenerios, either all the substitutes reported and were beckoned, (maybe there were mulitple subsitutions and an extra player was inadvertently left on the court) or the officials had no idea who the extra team member was, or how he go there, so a subsitute technical foul is not a rule book soluton (even if it were, we don't know whom to charge it to).

What is the rule for when a player ceases to be a player and becomes bench personnel during a substitution process?

It's in the rules book twice! Rules 3-3-3 & 4-34-3. The moment that the substitute replacing him becomes a player. Now assuming that such entry was legal, that is when the substitute enters the court.

Therefore, if at a stoppage you have five players (A1, A2, A3, A4, and A5) and three substitutes (A6, A7, and A8) legally enter, you now have five players (of which A6, A7, and A8 are three) and three team members (all of which are 3 of the 5 from A1 - A5) who are bench personnel on the court. If one of those three being replaced inadvertently remains on the court when the ball becomes live again, you now have a substitute who did not properly report or get beckoned to re-enter the game. As this individual is properly classified by the rules as a team member who is bench personnel, a substitute technical foul is warranted, if this individual's presence is detected at a later time during a dead ball.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

In all of my scenerios, either all the substitutes reported and were beckoned, (maybe there were mulitple subsitutions and an extra player was inadvertently left on the court) or the officials had no idea who the extra team member was, or how he go there, so a subsitute technical foul is not a rule book soluton (even if it were, we don't know whom to charge it to).

Team A scores a field goal. Six team members on Team A are setting up a full court press. Officials become aware of the extra player before the ball is at the disposal of Team B for a run-the-endline throwin. The ball is dead, and the clock is running. (NFHS 10-1-6: A team shall not: Have more than five team members participating simultaneously. If discovered while being violated.) One of the head coaches is yelling "They have six players on the court, that's a technical foul". Are six team members moving into positions to set up a full court press "participating", especially while the clock is running?

Start your 5-second count then blow your whistle for a Technical.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Raymond

Start your 5-second count then blow your whistle for a Technical.

Made basket by Team A, immediate time-out by Team A is granted by the officials, officials notice six team members departing the floor for Team A.

How do you handle it?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

As this individual is properly classified by the rules as a team member who is bench personnel, a substitute technical foul is warranted, if this individual's presence is detected at a later time during a dead ball.

Good point, but who do you charge the substitute technical foul to?

10-2 SUBSTITUTE TECHNICAL
A substitute shall not enter the court:
ART. 1 Without reporting to the scorer.
ART. 2 Without being beckoned by an official, except between quarters and
during time-outs.

What did one of the six team members on the court do wrong (other than cause an extra player to be on the court, a 10-1-6 issue)? In a multiple substitute situation, assume all substitutes reported to the scorer, and all were beckoned by an official.

Where's the illegal act for a 10-2 individual substitute penalty? How can they enter when they never left?

Nobody entered the court illegally, somebody stayed on the court illegally.

Remember, many years ago substitutes were required to report and state whom they were replacing (not that many scorekeepers kept track). Now they just have to report to the scorekeeper and don't have to state whom they are replacing.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Made basket by Team A, immediate time-out by Team A is granted by the officials, officials notice six team members departing the floor for Team A. How do you handle it?

Great question. I honestly don't know for either a written test, or how I would actually handle it in a real game.

If it were for an intermission rather than a timeout (no players all bench personnel at this point), I would ignore it and make sure that only five came onto the floor after the intermission.

For a timeout? Tough question. If the opposing coach was pointing out the extra players to me, I might be forced to use purpose and intent, but even that may not back me up enough support charging a team technical.

No coach in my ear, I'm probably passing, but it would leave a bad taste in my mouth, mainly because I would be pissed at myself for allowing an extra player in the game.

The big part of my last scenario was that the clock was running.

After multiple substitutions during which all substitutes reported and were properly beckoned, after the ball becomes live, Team A scores a field goal. Six team members on Team A are setting up a full court press. Officials become aware of the extra player before the ball is at the disposal of Team B for a run-the-endline throwin. The ball is dead, and the clock is running. (NFHS 10-1-6: A team shall not: Have more than five team members participating simultaneously. If discovered while being violated.) One of the head coaches is yelling "They have six players on the court, that's a technical foul". Are six team members moving into positions to set up a full court press "participating", especially while the clock is running?

[deecee]

Sometimes you just have to officiate and make a decision.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

As this individual is properly classified by the rules as a team member who is bench personnel, a substitute technical foul is warranted, if this individual's presence is detected at a later time during a dead ball.

If one of the six gives you some lip will it result in the head coach getting an indirect technical foul, and if so, which one of the six? I do understand that in some cases bench personnel can be on the court, but in this case we don't know which one it is. In this multiple substitute situation that preceded the scoring play, all the substitutes reported to the scorer, and all were beckoned by an official. That's why (I'm guessing here) why its a team technical foul rather than an individual technical foul because sometimes we don't know exactly how that extra guy got onto the court, we just know that there's an extra guy out there, and it's illegal.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Made basket by Team A, immediate time-out by Team A is granted by the officials, officials notice six team members departing the floor for Team A.

How do you handle it?

Time-out granted before noticing 6th man? Then we missed the 6-man violation and we move on.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by deecee

Sometimes you just have to officiate and make a decision.

Yep, instead of debating yourself and waffling back-and-forth about what to do.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Made basket by Team A, immediate time-out by Team A is granted by the officials, officials notice six team members departing the floor for Team A.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

For a timeout? Tough question. If the opposing coach was pointing out the extra players to me, I might be forced to use purpose and intent, but even that may not back me up enough support charging a team technical.

No coach in my ear, I'm probably passing, but it would leave a bad taste in my mouth, mainly because I would be pissed at myself for allowing an extra player in the game.

Originally Posted by Raymond

Time-out granted before noticing 6th man? Then we missed the 6-man violation and we move on.

I've given some thought to this specific scenario throughout the day, and Raymond's interpretation sounds just about right. Even I will admit that the extra man isn't participating when he was discovered by the official after the timeout had been granted.

The onion is being peeled away.

Now, back to made goal, dead ball (not yet at disposal), clock running, six man full court pressure, no timeout, maybe with the coach politely pointing out the extra man? That extra player has to be participating? Right?