Getting It Right - Your Thoughts?

[WindyCityBlue]

Let me handle this one boys...

On an appealed check swing or any appealable play the unwritten rule of conduct has long been:

In Fed and NCAA, you should grant the appeal.
In Professional and OBR governed ball, you must grant the appeal.

Now, if you don't grant the appeal in Fed or NCAA, you are not showing the players and coaches that you are 100% certain and won't be second guessed. You are giving them the reason to not hire you anymore. You have just learned that you are the lone wolf with regards to this stance. Ask Alstadt, Collis or any of the guys you admire. Those guys will tell you that you are spitting in the wind here.

An appeal is not about changing your call. Most of the time it simply reinforces it.

[Sal Giaco]

JR,
You are sinking deeper and deeper with each post on this subject. Regardless of the level, if the manager asks you to get help on a check/half swing that you, the PU, rule "ball, he didn't go" - you MUST ask your partner by RULE. That goes for FED, NCAA & OBR and whatever other baseball rules there may be. And yes, if you don't, the manager can PROTEST the game.

Now that we've cleared that up, I understand your point about coaches asking you to get help "every time the ball bounces funny". Especially at the younger levels, inexperienced coaches try to do this often. However, as you move up, things will change a bit and you'll deal with some managers that only come out for "legitimate" reasons. Sometimes, that can be a wake up call that perhaps you may have missed something. Use your best judgement and communicate with managers in the most professional manner when explaining why you will or will not get help from a partner. Just my opinion

[Atl Blue]

Actually, in NCAA, you must grant it as well:

From the NCAA rulebook, Rule 3-6-e:

e. When asked by a coach or player, the plate umpire must seek a decision from the appropriate base umpire regarding the “checked swing.” Such appeal ONLY may be made when the plate umpire has called the pitch a ball.

What part of "coach or player" and "must" is misunderstood?

To your "credit", there is no similar rule in the FED book. But the FED ump that does not ask has far greater game management problems.

[WindyCityBlue]

You are right about what we do with two men crews. However, I have long crewed with guys on our three man crews that say, "If I'm inside (B/C), don't come to me." personally, I think that I can make the call, but these guys are pretty awesome and I've picked up that habit. 99% of the time we will be in the position to ask for and receive the appeal. I have encountered coaches that love and hate the way that we wok that mechanic. Most of them understand and cut us a little slack because we are on top of everything.

I think Sal said it before. Most of the guys at the D1 and 2 levels are pretty good balls and strikes guys. They have great plate presence and sell their calls. Because they see the play so well, the check swing is rung up without the need to go for help. When it does occur, you are right Atl, you need to ask - it hurts nothing and usually reinforces our original call.

I just saw Triple H's reply when I posted this, so rather than add another, I'll just edit this.

PLEASE READ WHAT I'VE WRITTEN. It has long been an unwritten rule...

I never quoted any book, since I don't have them in front of me. It was a rule of thumb that has guided us for a long time. Don't take any glee in thinking I slipped up. If you read what I said, you'll find that I almost always grant the appeal. (2 man with the field ump in C and a right hander checks his swing...good luck selling that when you have no angle!) So, I'm not sure how I am dead wrong. Most pro crews have 4 men and terrific angles. In Rookie, Class A and AA Ball we got killed on this same call all of the time. We had to appeal and we were rarely in position to make an absolute call.

[Edited by WindyCityBlue on Oct 21st, 2004 at 03:03 PM]

[Sal Giaco]

My apologies to JR and HHH - I was wrong about the FED part but correct on the NCAA and OBR. I do not work games played under FED rules so I should have not spoke in reference that. However, I do agree that if asked, at any level, you should extend the courtesy. That's just my opinion.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Sal Giaco
JR,
You are sinking deeper and deeper with each post on this subject. Regardless of the level, if the manager asks you to get help on a check/half swing that you, the PU, rule "ball, he didn't go" - you MUST ask your partner by RULE. That goes for FED, NCAA & OBR and whatever other baseball rules there may be. And yes, if you don't, the manager can PROTEST the game.

I see you have not ever picked up a FED Rulebook. You cannot protest a game in FED Rules and my state does not honor protests.

Originally posted by Sal Giaco
Now that we've cleared that up

Are you sure about that?

Originally posted by Sal Giaco
I understand your point about coaches asking you to get help "every time the ball bounces funny". Especially at the younger levels, inexperienced coaches try to do this often.

Yes they do.

Originally posted by Sal Giaco
However, as you move up, things will change a bit and you'll deal with some managers that only come out for "legitimate" reasons. Sometimes, that can be a wake up call that perhaps you may have missed something.

I really do not want to make this about the level, but I work my share of JUCO and D3 Baseball over the years and coaches at that level are much more "calculating" and "premise" about what they complain about. If you do not do the job, you will not be back. So I am aware of the differences. But I work much more FED baseball because I choose to and that is the basic philosophy that I use. I still find it very silly to ask for an appeal because a coach thinks you missed something.

Originally posted by Sal Giaco
Use your best judgement and communicate with managers in the most professional manner when explaining why you will or will not get help from a partner. Just my opinion

And it is my opinion that I can use my judgment and decide when I need help or should give help. Sorry, but coaches are not the barometer of that decision making process. Coaches ask for help on basic plays (like a tag play at second base); I am not doing that when the request is stupid and dumb to being with.

This discussion was not about whether we ask for help, but if the coaches determine when and if we ask for help. They never will in my philosophy.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Sal Giaco
My apologies to JR and HHH - I was wrong about the FED part but correct on the NCAA and OBR. I do not work games played under FED rules so I should have not spoke in reference that. However, I do agree that if asked, at any level, you should extend the courtesy. That's just my opinion.

I never debated the different codes. So from my point of view this was not about the rules difference, just a philosophy. I adhere to the rules that I am under. I do not work OBR and do not try to speak for that level. I think we all need to realize that we all do not work under the same codes.

And the reason I take that position at the FED level, is because most of the appeal requests are very bogus. Coaches do not influence that. I did not realize that it was a real issue. I always ask for appeals when I see it necessary (pulled foot, checked swings, dropped balls). I guess that is what I get for assuming.

Peace

[WindyCityBlue]

This discussion was not about whether we ask for help, but if the coaches determine when and if we ask for help. They never will in my philosophy.

– - - - - - - - - - - - - -

No it's not, I started the thread and know what I wrote. The basic tenet of umpiring is make the proper call, not make the best call you can and live with it. Coaches and players have the right to complain when we kick calls. We have the ability to control their actions. We also have the ability to correct many of our calls. This dialogue was all about informing Gordon0307 of what we think are appropriate calls to correct. You should read the first paragraph again.

You are treading water all alone here. It's raining and the forecast calls for more of the same. You shouldn't have jumped ship so soon.

[Sal Giaco]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JRutledge
I see you have not ever picked up a FED Rulebook. You cannot protest a game in FED Rules and my state does not honor protests. [QUOTE][i]

I did study FED rules when I worked games that were governed by FED rules - that was six years ago. As I stated, I apologize for mispeaking in regards to half swing apeals as it relates to FED rules.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
No it's not, I started the thread and know what I wrote. The basic tenet of umpiring is make the proper call, not make the best call you can and live with it. Coaches and players have the right to complain when we kick calls. We have the ability to control their actions. We also have the ability to correct many of our calls. This dialogue was all about informing Gordon0307 of what we think are appropriate calls to correct. You should read the first paragraph again.

You are treading water all alone here. It's raining and the forecast calls for more of the same. You shouldn't have jumped ship so soon.

Let me rephrase the statement. This discussion has turned into another whether we ask for an appeal because the coach has a complaint or makes and issue of a play. I am saying it should not. You can disagree and that is fine.

Peace

[WindyCityBlue]

No the discussion turned when you - the first reply - changed the topic. You turned this away from what we should do and when we should do it, to a p*ssing contest with coaches. Don't pass the buck!

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
No the discussion turned when you - the first reply - changed the topic. You turned this away from what we should do and when we should do it, to a p*ssing contest with coaches. Don't pass the buck!

Windy,

This is not about passing the buck or putting blame on anyone. I found your comments silly when you talked about the role coaches should play in whether we ask for appeals. It is very clear we do not see eye to eye on this or many other topics. It is OK. Just like many people in our area do not agree on things and function, we can do the same.

I still find it silly that anyone would consider coaches' opinions as it relates to whether they ask for appeals. All that seems like is catering to a coach instead of using common sense and knowing your own ability and your position.

Peace

[Atl Blue]

JR:

What did you have for lunch? Apparently it wiped out all memory of what you wrote this morning:

Posted by JR at Oct 21st, 2004 01:53 PM:
My first question to you is do you have the reference to FED or NCAA Rules? Because referencing OBR is irrelevant to the games I work. I only work games in the spring for the most part. When I do work in the summer which is very rare, they use FED and NCAA Rules.

I then posted the applicable NCAA rule (which you specifically asked for), and also stated that the FED does NOT have the same rule.

JR, at Oct 21st, 2004 03:09 PM, then posted:
I never debated the different codes. So from my point of view this was not about the rules difference, just a philosophy.

Gee, you just said that OBR rules don't matter, that you work FED and NCAA. You asked for a reference from the NCAA and FED, and gave them to you, proving that in NCAA you do have to ask, and you said you never debated the different codes. Did you even remember your earlier post?

I adhere to the rules that I am under.

Apparently not, if you don't ask in NCAA games when requested by a coach OR a player!

I see you have not ever picked up a FED Rulebook. You cannot protest a game in FED Rules and my state does not honor protests.

Your state may not allow protests. Mine does. And NOWHERE in the FED rulebook does it say you can't protest a game in FED rules, it says it is up to each state:

Rule 4-5-1: It is optional on the part of a state association as to whether protests are permitted. When allowed, protests are permitted regarding rules one through nine only. When protests are submitted to organizations which do allow the filing, such protest must be submitted using a prescribed procedure (10-2-3i). All individual and team averages shall be included in the official records, except that no pitcher shall be credited with a victory or charged with a loss in such a game, if the game is not regulation.

And I thought Windy was thick! At least he was right.

JR, when it's you against the world, it's at least worth considering betting on the world.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Atl Blue
JR:

What did you have for lunch? Apparently it wiped out all memory of what you wrote this morning:

Posted by JR at Oct 21st, 2004 01:53 PM:
[i]My first question to you is do you have the reference to FED or NCAA Rules? Because referencing OBR is irrelevant to the games I work. I only work games in the spring for the most part. When I do work in the summer which is very rare, they use FED and NCAA Rules.

I can see you cannot recognize sarcasm. You referenced OBR like that was the only level we could be talking about. I work under both NCAA and FED Rules. I do different things under those rules. But I do not just give an appeal if the situation does not call for an appeal. It is one thing on a check swing. It is another thing all together if we have a judgment call. So I guess you think I should ask for help on an out and safe call because the coach wants you to appeal to your partner?

Originally posted by Atl Blue
Gee, you just said that OBR rules don't matter, that you work FED and NCAA. You asked for a reference from the NCAA and FED, and gave them to you, proving that in NCAA you do have to ask, and you said you never debated the different codes. Did you even remember your earlier post?

I did not ask for anything, I was just making a point that I do not work OBR rules. Your reference to OBR was awful assumptive.

Originally posted by Atl Blue
Apparently not, if you don't ask in NCAA games when requested by a coach OR a player!

ATL Blue, you were the one that assumed level. Not one time has anyone even given an example of an appeal situation. You just claim the coach can ask for one. There is a difference between a proper request and a request for an appeal when it is not warranted. All situations are not subject to appeals.

Originally posted by Atl Blue
Your state may not allow protests. Mine does. And NOWHERE in the FED rulebook does it say you can't protest a game in FED rules, it says it is up to each state:

I should have just said it was not allowed in my state. FED rules are local for the most part. There are many rules that states can use that affect the application of the FED Rules. A great example is those states that do not allow any other bats except for wood. I do not care what other states do and it is not relevant to my point of view. What you do in your state is not my concern.

Originally posted by Atl Blue
Rule 4-5-1: It is optional on the part of a state association as to whether protests are permitted. When allowed, protests are permitted regarding rules one through nine only. When protests are submitted to organizations which do allow the filing, such protest must be submitted using a prescribed procedure (10-2-3i). All individual and team averages shall be included in the official records, except that no pitcher shall be credited with a victory or charged with a loss in such a game, if the game is not regulation.

That is nice, but they do not accept appeals in my state. They did not (could have changed) in the other state I worked briefly. They make this clear in all Rules meetings and publications before the season. All umpire decisions are final. So if they allow it in your neck of the woods, so be it. That does not apply to my area. So personally it is irrelevant. I guess you assume everyone follows the same procedures. As a matter of fact we even have different mechanics that are required that are not explained in NF books.

Originally posted by Atl Blue
JR, when it's you against the world, it's at least worth considering betting on the world.

This is not up for a vote. If you want to do something in your games and it works, you do that. When I work in my games I will do that works for me. If you want the coach to play you like a fiddle and every disagreement he asks for an appeal, you go and do that. I will not. I will pick and choose when those situations are. All situations are not subject to appeals. If they are, you are telling that you have a banger at first base and you rule the player out, the coach can ask for your partner's opinion and you can give it to them? If that is what you think, you then do that. I will not. You know Bobby Brown has a song awhile back and said, "you can do what you want to do...it's my prerogative." And considering that I will never work a game with you and you do not live in the area I do, I guess I do not have to worry about what the "world" thinks about this issue or any for that matter.

Peace

[WindyCityBlue]

I have worked baseball for many years and have never had an appeal WITHOUT a coach or player requesting it.

You can disagree all you want. You are alone.

I would get a refund from whatever school taught you how to umpire.