Getting It Right - Your Thoughts?

[WindyCityBlue]

Gordon posted a question to me yesterday. He asked when I thought it was appropriate to seek or offer help when umpiring. Rather than bury this somewhere, I thought this was imprtant enough to hear from everyone.

My thoughts on getting the call right: The Big Ten has instructed their football replay officials to use this logic. If 100 people looked at the play, would 100 of them say the call is obvious. I like that...would I have called it differently? If so, then the wheels get going. We have been instructed to allow our partner(s) to offer assistance and provide the same for any call that involves a rules application violation, a dropped ball on a tag or catch, pulled feet or swipe tags, fair/foul/out of play calls, home runs and touched bases.

I have worked many games where I’ve gone out on a fly ball to right center. Knowing that my partner may not be aware of his primary coverage (watching the touch at first, Int/OBS and the play at 2nd) I’ll glance over my shoulder as I run to see that he is moving. If experience tells me that the ball will drop (the fielder is slowing down or I hear the infield yelling “Two”) I will steal another glance. Then I will bust home for my coverage on a an overthrow play at the plate. More than once, I’ve SEEN the runner miss first or be obstructed by the first baseman and my partner was not aware. I have had to listen to coaches scream at him and then beg me to help. Depending on my mood, I’ve been guilty of shrugging my shoulders and saying that I didn’t see it. (Usually when it’s 40 degrees and an early season non-conference high school series.) I can honestly say that I have had a college partner miss this and I had to fix it. We got together after the screamer provided the necessary inducement and talked about what I saw. We got it right and talked about it again between the double header. I’ve worked many games with this guy and hope to work many more. He knows that he can do the same thing for me any day.

Now, back to the countdown. I also think that we should offer help on anything around the dish. Trapped third strikes (if my partner sees me rotate for the play, he knows that I saw it hit the ground!), fouls in the box, fouls off the batter, a CLEAR step out of the box on a bunt, a double hit of the ball with the bat, a hit batter. How many times have you seen the inside pitch buckle the batter and the catcher screens the PU, only to have the pitch hit something (the bat or hands)? I also ask my partners to watch out for balls that can take our eyes away from the play. For example, in a two man system and a runner on second, the batter hits a rope directly at the head of the field umpire. He had his hands on his knees and is only able to fall to the ground to get out of the way. He cannot see the kid touch first, the PU is looking for the touch and advance at third. BUT...a quick glance at first saves our butts when the coach appeals that the kid missed first on his way to second. “We’re going to appeal that touch at first.” “Coach, I saw it and he’s good, but if you want to have him do it, okay.” Nothing hurt and we’ve covered it without embarrassing a partner.

The bottm line is that we are doing it for the good of the game. We are not trying to one up each other or give the coaches another reason to make us look silly. There is nothing wrong with having a coach say, “Get some help on that one.” Get together and decide what needs to be done - sometimes it’s nothing and sometimes you’ll have to say, “Coach, we’ve got the same call.” I like it when my partner comes in and says, “I’ve got the same thing. He was dead.”

IÂ’m sure that there are other plays that warrant help. I have never advocated bangers at any bag or called balls and strikes. A couple of members have said that eventually those calls will be scrutinized, as well. They already are and we have done nothing to change the human factor involved. We have, however, taken steps to correct obvious bad calls and that is a good start. Nothing turns off future umpires, fans and players more than incompetence and arrogance on the field. MLB understands that.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
The bottm line is that we are doing it for the good of the game. We are not trying to one up each other or give the coaches another reason to make us look silly. There is nothing wrong with having a coach say, “Get some help on that one.” Get together and decide what needs to be done - sometimes it’s nothing and sometimes you’ll have to say, “Coach, we’ve got the same call.” I like it when my partner comes in and says, “I’ve got the same thing. He was dead.”

You are going to get help based on what a coach wants?

Peace

[WindyCityBlue]

Are you telling me that you wouldn't get together when a coach comes out and asks you to ask your partner for help (on an applicable play, as we've discussed), you'll beg off?

That is a major contention here. Some guys think that their calls are absolute and don't acre what anyone else thinks.

Do you say "No" when he asks for an appealed check swing?
Then why would you not say "Okay coach, back off and I'll ask him what he saw." Now you get together and say, "Jurassic, I saw him come off the bag and he never got back before the runner. How about you?" When he tells you that he's got the same thing, you walk back to him and say, "Coach, my partner and I agree. It was a great dig by your first baseman, but he lost the bag. The runner is safe. Now, let's play ball."

The Major Leaguers have shown us all year that they are not afraid to get help or even look like they are getting together (1, 2, 3, 4 or 6 guys) to talk. Talking with each other gives the appearance of sincerity and reflects respect for the game.

Finally, I will not offer assistance and don't expect to receive any WHEN A COACH HASN'T COME ON THE FIELD OR REQUESTED IT. The only time we are aware that there is a problem is when a coach or player lets us know! It's not a difficult concept.

[David B]

Originally posted by JRutledge

You are going to get help based on what a coach wants?

Peace

Of course that ties into the equation. If Francona would have stayed in the dugout we would have a double and a run scoring instead of a HR.

Same for the other plays. Actually the coach asked for an explaination and ended up with the call being right. Talk about helping the umpire out.

Imagine what would have happened to Marsh if the play would have been uncontested and all of TV world knew it was a HR and it didn't get called. His nickname would be Denkinger.

BAck to the 80's we go.

Thanks
David

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
Are you telling me that you wouldn't get together when a coach comes out and asks you to ask your partner for help (on an applicable play, as we've discussed), you'll beg off?

I do not give a damn what a coach wants. If my partner wants help, he will ask. If I need help, I will ask. The coach has nothing to do with that decision. And it might not be appropriate to ask for help in many situations. Coaches ask for help on many plays where another umpire could have made a call if they saw something but did not.

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
That is a major contention here. Some guys think that their calls are absolute and don't acre what anyone else thinks.

Depending on the call and situation, it is absolute. If my partner sees my call, what the heck is he watching?

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
Do you say "No" when he asks for an appealed check swing?
Then why would you not say "Okay coach, back off and I'll ask him what he saw." Now you get together and say, "Jurassic, I saw him come off the bag and he never got back before the runner. How about you?" When he tells you that he's got the same thing, you walk back to him and say, "Coach, my partner and I agree. It was a great dig by your first baseman, but he lost the bag. The runner is safe. Now, let's play ball."

At the HS level, I am not asking for a checked swing help just because a coach asks for it. For one, they ask for them when it is so obvious there was no swing. Or better yet they want the PU to get help after they have ruled the batter made a swing.

Windy, I have been doing this awhile. I know when I need help or when I need to give help. It is a pregame discussion I bring up every single game. So if there is an issue with a pulled foot, we have already discussed that situation before the game.

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
The Major Leaguers have shown us all year that they are not afraid to get help or even look like they are getting together (1, 2, 3, 4 or 6 guys) to talk. Talking with each other gives the appearance of sincerity and reflects respect for the game.

I have also seen many situations where they did not ask for help either. I have yet to see an umpire ask for help at the ML level for a pulled foot or a dropped ball. They have gotten together on interference calls or rulings on homeruns or where to advance runners, but not on basic plays. I certainly have not seen ML Umpires asking for help on checked swings because the coach wanted it. They tend to do that on their own.

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
Finally, I will not offer assistance and don't expect to receive any WHEN A COACH HASN'T COME ON THE FIELD OR REQUESTED IT. The only time we are aware that there is a problem is when a coach or player lets us know! It's not a difficult concept.

I guess the part that I find disturbing is that you seem to base a lot of things on what the coach does. Coaches do and say things to get an advantage. Coaches will see what strings they can pull from you. The last person I give a damn about is what the coach thinks. They sometimes have legitimate gripes and I have been officiating long enough to recognize that. But just because a coach wants me to ask for help is silly to me.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by David B


Of course that ties into the equation. If Francona would have stayed in the dugout we would have a double and a run scoring instead of a HR.

Same for the other plays. Actually the coach asked for an explaination and ended up with the call being right. Talk about helping the umpire out.

Imagine what would have happened to Marsh if the play would have been uncontested and all of TV world knew it was a HR and it didn't get called. His nickname would be Denkinger.

BAck to the 80's we go.

Thanks
David

I did not see the play on TV. I did hear it on the radio (live). I do not know what came first, the coach coming out or not. But I do know if I had information to give my partner, the actions of the coach would be irrelevant.

Peace

[David B]

Originally posted by JRutledge

I did not see the play on TV. I did hear it on the radio (live). I do not know what came first, the coach coming out or not. But I do know if I had information to give my partner, the actions of the coach would be irrelevant.

Peace

I think I understand what you are saying, but the actions of the coach would matter.

If you had information, you would tell me you would go to the BU and tell him, its a HR even if no one had disputed the call?

I don't believe that you would do that.

The coach asks for the umpire to explain the call and then if the umpire wants to ask for clarification etc., he asks.

That's the way its always worked in my leagues and the way MLB is starting to do now.

Thanks
David

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by David B

I think I understand what you are saying, but the actions of the coach would matter.

Maybe with you, not with me and many other umpires I know. Sorry, I just cannot go along with you on this one.

Originally posted by David B
If you had information, you would tell me you would go to the BU and tell him, its a HR even if no one had disputed the call?

Yes, if it was obvious from my point of view it was not. Why award the wrong bases when you have something to offer. Now of course in most situations that is not the case.

Originally posted by David B
I don't believe that you would do that.

I guess you do not know me very well. Or better yet, you have not seen me work any games either.

Originally posted by David B
The coach asks for the umpire to explain the call and then if the umpire wants to ask for clarification etc., he asks.

He might get an explanation if he comes out with the right attitude. But it is not "automatic."

Originally posted by David B
That's the way its always worked in my leagues and the way MLB is starting to do now.

I am not sure why there is the constant obsession with what the MLB Umpires do. If they do not ask for help until the coach complains, that is on them. I know I have and will give help or ask for help if I have some obvious information that will help my partner or I make a call. The coach does not factor in that decision.

Peace

[WindyCityBlue]

My head hurts from reading his posts.

David, you stated what most of us know. If a coach comes out and asks us what happened, we will answer it. If he is reasonable and asks us to check with our partner, most respectable umpires will do it. Once you've reached a certain level of maturity, you understand that no one came to see you work.

Apparently, the quality of coaches he sees and the partners he work with merit his attitude on the field. Maybe there is a bigger reason why he won't offer help. The same reason I woudn't hire Stevie Wonder to paint my house or Charles Manson to babysit.

[gsf23]

Originally posted by JRutledge

I do not give a damn what a coach wants. If my partner wants help, he will ask. If I need help, I will ask. The coach has nothing to do with that decision.
[/QUOTE]

So you are saying that you would get help if no one questioned the original call? Unless someone is questioning the original call, why would you need to go get help?

I have also seen many situations where they did not ask for help either. I have yet to see an umpire ask for help at the ML level for a pulled foot or a dropped ball. They have gotten together on interference calls or rulings on homeruns or where to advance runners, but not on basic plays.

I have seen them get help on basic plays. Last year on a line drive down the first base line that stays in the park, 1B umpire ruled it a foul ball. After manager came out to question the call, the umpires got together, ruled it a fair ball, put the batter on second and scored a run.

Also, I have never seen them get together and conference on a play unless a manager or player is questioning the original call.

I certainly have not seen ML Umpires asking for help on checked swings because the coach wanted it. They tend to do that on their own.

Personally, I never ask for an appeal on a check swing unless the catcher requests it, and most the time, it is the coach telling the catcher to ask for the appeal. If it's not close, then I just deny the appeal. I've seen very few MLB umps ask for an appeal unless a catcher requests it first or it's a checked swing dropped third strike.

The last person I give a damn about is what the coach thinks. They sometimes have legitimate gripes and I have been officiating long enough to recognize that. But just because a coach wants me to ask for help is silly to me.

I'd like to believe you, Jeff, so please tell us about a few times that you went to get help or offered help on a call without first a coach or player asking to get help.

As much as you would like to think that a coach, player or fans have no infulence on you, they do a little. I don't think anyone is saying that you go to get help every time a coach asks, but unless someone is questioning the original call then why would you need to get or give help?

[Sal Giaco]

WCB & Dave are correct - I think we have to be "respectful" to a manager's requests. Does that mean we MUST get help everytime they request it??? Absolutely NOT!. However, I think if they come out on you, you need to listen closely to what he is saying and consider the following:

1. Am I 110% sure I got the play right
2. Is this a play/situation that it is even possible for me to go to my partner for help
3. Could he have possibly had a better angle than me on that play

Communication skills plays a big role in this as well. Remember, perception is reality and if you decide not to get help after a coach comes out on you, make sure you thoroughly explain to him why you can't and/or won't do it. Just my opinion

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by gsf23


So you are saying that you would get help if no one questioned the original call? Unless someone is questioning the original call, why would you need to go get help?

Why not? You would get help or give help because you have an obviously wrong call. Like the ball being completely dropped on a force out or the ball hitting the ground or not hitting the ground on a swinging strike.

Originally posted by gsf23

Also, I have never seen them get together and conference on a play unless a manager or player is questioning the original call.

Let me ask you this, did they get help "because" the call was questioned by a player or was that already the case? I know of many situations where a coach complains and no one asks or receives help on a call. I am not so sure it is a result of the gripping from the coach.

Originally posted by gsf23
Personally, I never ask for an appeal on a check swing unless the catcher requests it, and most the time, it is the coach telling the catcher to ask for the appeal. If it's not close, then I just deny the appeal. I've seen very few MLB umps ask for an appeal unless a catcher requests it first or it's a checked swing dropped third strike.

The catcher pointing is not really an appeal. You see catchers at the HS and college level point to the umpire because they see it on TV. I do not consider a point as a real request for an appeal in the first place. I ask all the time regardless of what the catcher does. If the catcher pops up and screens me from the view of the batter, I will ask myself. The catcher pointing has not bearing on when I ask for an appeal. As a matter of fact, I have denied appeals if it is clear the batter did not go at all after a pitch.

Originally posted by gsf23
I'd like to believe you, Jeff, so please tell us about a few times that you went to get help or offered help on a call without first a coach or player asking to get help.

I asked for help just this past season. I was the PU and there was a pitch in near the dirt. I obviously did not see if the catcher catch the ball (neither did the batter) and the batter took off for first. There was a runner on second base and the runner advanced to 3rd. The batter was safe at first because of a bad throw not caught. My partner immediately starting walking toward me (This is a D1 Umpire that worked a State Final this year). He gave me a signal as well that we talked about in the pregame that is commonly used in these parts. I went to him immediately and got help. He said that the ball was caught and I ruled the batter out. The coach came out only to complain that the runner on that was on second base and advanced to third should return. We explained to the coach this was a live ball and runners could advance at their own risk. The coach went right back to the dugout without further discussion.

Originally posted by gsf23
As much as you would like to think that a coach, player or fans have no infulence on you, they do a little. I don't think anyone is saying that you go to get help every time a coach asks, but unless someone is questioning the original call then why would you need to get or give help?

I guess this tie into my officiating background. As a basketball official it is very common to have a player or coach to question your calls. I do not change those or ask for help because they want me to. As a football official (Referee) almost every play a kid comes to me and claims they are being held. I know that does not change my mind. Many times I tell them why I did not make the call and what I saw. I know I do not care if a player thinks he was not tagged or his foot was on the base if I am in good position to see the entire play. I will ask when I do not have a really good angle or know my partner is watching on obvious plays, but I do not ask for help or want help based on what a coach does. Sorry, it does not.

Peace

[Atl Blue]

OBR

9.02 c) The manager or the catcher may request the plate umpire to ask his partner for help on a half swing when the plate umpire calls the pitch a ball, but not when the pitch is called a strike. The manager may not complain that the umpire made an improper call, but only that he did not ask his partner for help. Field umpires must be alerted to the request from the plate umpire and quickly respond. Managers may not protest the call of a ball or strike on the pretense they are asking for information about a half swing. Appeals on a half swing may be made only on the call of ball and when asked to appeal, the home plate umpire must refer to a base umpire for his judgment on the half swing. Should the base umpire call the pitch a strike, the strike call shall prevail

The catcher comes up pointing to the base ump on a checked swing and you don't think this is an appeal? What's he doing, giving directions to the nearest McDonald's? Of course it's an appeal! And if you don't ask, you're the fool. What can happen? Either your partner agrees with you, or you get another strike. Both of these are good things.

Do I sometimes go to my partner for help without a coach asking? Sure, but with the exception of a checked swing, it's rare.

In other cases, I make my call. Sometimes I have to do that without being 100% sure, because whether I'm 100% sure or not, they are looking for a call from me. If no one hollers about it, we go on. I don't say, "Gee I wasn't 100% sure, let me go check with my partner." If the coach or the player is OK with my call, so am I.

But if a coach comes out and reasonably asks if I could get help, or if I had a clear view, or if I am 100% sure, I will absolutely go to my partner.

And yes, baseball is different from football or basketball in this sense.

A coach absolutely has an effect on whether you might ask for help, and he should. JR, I have battled Windy here, although it's almost always more on style than substance. But on this one, he is 100% correct and you are WAY off base. And I don't need help from my partner to see that one. But if the coach wants me to ask, I will.

[Sal Giaco]

Originally posted by Atl Blue
The catcher comes up pointing to the base ump on a checked swing and you don't think this is an appeal? What's he doing, giving directions to the nearest McDonald's? Of course it's an appeal!

ATL Blue,
You are right and hilarious too!

WCB, ATL BLUE, Bob LYLE and Sal Giaco all agree on the same thing. I think it's a safe bet we have a consenses on this one. JR - I don't know who you are but I think you've got to trust us on this one

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Atl Blue
OBR

9.02 c) The manager or the catcher may request the plate umpire to ask his partner for help on a half swing when the plate umpire calls the pitch a ball, but not when the pitch is called a strike. The manager may not complain that the umpire made an improper call, but only that he did not ask his partner for help. Field umpires must be alerted to the request from the plate umpire and quickly respond. Managers may not protest the call of a ball or strike on the pretense they are asking for information about a half swing. Appeals on a half swing may be made only on the call of ball and when asked to appeal, the home plate umpire must refer to a base umpire for his judgment on the half swing. Should the base umpire call the pitch a strike, the strike call shall prevail

My first question to you is do you have the reference to FED or NCAA Rules? Because referencing OBR is irrelevant to the games I work. I only work games in the spring for the most part. When I do work in the summer which is very rare, they use FED and NCAA Rules. I do not care what the OBR rulings on this issue are. It does not apply to me.

Originally posted by Atl Blue
The catcher comes up pointing to the base ump on a checked swing and you don't think this is an appeal? What's he doing, giving directions to the nearest McDonald's? Of course it's an appeal! And if you don't ask, you're the fool. What can happen? Either your partner agrees with you, or you get another strike. Both of these are good things.

He can point all he wants to. At the FED level and rules, the umpire decides if there is to be an appeal made. At the college level we encouraged to ask for an appeal almost all the time. But I never ask for an appeal if I have already determined the batter struck at the ball. It is ultimately the umpire's decision, not the fact they simply request.

Originally posted by Atl Blue
But if a coach comes out and reasonably asks if I could get help, or if I had a clear view, or if I am 100% sure, I will absolutely go to my partner.

Who said anything about them being "reasonable?" This is not an issue as to how they come out and how they act; this is about do you ask for help because they come out. My answer is still no. Not because I do not listen to them or I have to stick to what I feel, but I am not asking for help every time a coach asks for it, because it is always not appropriate or reasonable from my point of view. There are many situations that as an umpire I am going to make a call because I have some responsibility (or my partner does as well) at what is taking place. A perfect example is when a batter hits a ball and the ball comes close to hitting him or hits him. In all the mechanics I know of, when that happens both the PU and the BU can call the ball dead. But you seem to have a coach that wants help on a play that is very obvious and would have been called dead if a batter touched a ball. Now the PU might make the decision if the batter is out, but it does not eliminate the possibility of the BU saying "dead ball!" Why do I need to appeal a situation like that when I have discussed that very play in pregame and we come to the conclusion that is the proper thing to do? Every time the ball bounces funny, it seems like a coach wants us to believe that our partner is going to help on a play they are watching in the first place. It would be about as absurd as asking for help on a balk call, that is everyone's call. You do not appeal calls that we have responsibility for. If you do, so be it.

Originally posted by Atl Blue
A coach absolutely has an effect on whether you might ask for help, and he should. JR, I have battled Windy here, although it's almost always more on style than substance. But on this one, he is 100% correct and you are WAY off base. And I don't need help from my partner to see that one. But if the coach wants me to ask, I will.

I am glad you have confidence in your point of view and the point of view of those that agree with you. But I have had many HS coaches ask for appeals when it is not appropriate at all. Not only is the calling umpire on top of the play, the other umpire is not at all in position to help. Coaches have no influence with me. If they do with you, so be it. Life goes on and so will the game of baseball. But I will do what has worked for me and received the respect first with my partners and anyone else that gives a damn. The fact you used an OBR reference shows we are not on the same umpiring page to begin with.

Peace