Ejection

[Jay R]

I would like to add a couple of points.

First, remember that how you deal with an assistant coach says something about the person (umpire) you are. Many assistant coaches will become head coaches eventually. Treating them with respect is important I believe. However, I take less verbiage from an assistant than I do from a head coach. What I'm saying, be careful about saying that you not going to listen to them because they are an assistant coach.

Having said that, if an assistant questioned my integrity three times, he would probably get the boot.

Jay

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by SMEngmann
Hey everyone, I'm a basketball referee who reads the basketball forum regularly and I'm also a HS baseball coach and I wanted to ask your opinion on the following: Yesterday, I was ejected from a game for the first time as a coach, and I felt that the ejection was unwarrented, here's the scenario:

I knew the BU from my days in HS where he worked in the athletic department and I played and sometimes he seemed like he had a chip on his shoulder toward me, other times he was fine. In the 3rd inning, I'm coaching 1st and the LHP makes a pickoff move without stepping toward 1st. I ask if his foot was on the rubber, and then ask for the rubber to be dusted off and I get I costic response effectively telling me to shut up which shocked me because I wasn't even questioning a call. Later on, with my team in the field, there is a play at 2nd in which the throw beats the runner by a good 10 feet and the tag is down, but my 2B lifts up the tag slightly to avoid being spiked and BU calls the runner safe. The other coach argued at the time, and between innings as BU was walking toward 1st, I let him know that I thought the call was horrible because of the injury risk to the 2nd baseman. BU brushed me off and effectively gave me the stop sign, and in doing so referred to me by my first name. I felt that I wasn't being treated with the respect to warrant being called by my first name and I felt that doing so BU created an atmosphere of excessive familiarity, so I asked him to refer to me as "coach" from now on rather than by my first name, and as soon as I said that, he threw me out of the game.

I wonder what, given my context, some baseball umpires think of this ejection. I used no profanity, nor did I ever make a personal comment toward him. If I was officiating basketball, I couldn't justify giving a T. I feel that it is within my right as a coach to demand a certain level of respect from umpires, and I also think that, especially within the context of a conflict, that both parties should avoid familiarity. What do you guys think? Sorry for the long post.

IÂ’m posting this against my better judgment. I want it clearly understood from the outset that I will not respond to any posts growing out my message.

IÂ’m not defending the actions of the assistant coach. Instead, I want to focus for a moment on the advice given him by several respected members of this Board.

Instead of pointing out specific statements from individual umpires, I want to explain a little about my philosophy of handing a game played by amateurs. ItÂ’s what I do, itÂ’s what I teach, and itÂ’s what I recommend you do.

1. For the most part those of us who post to this Board are not full-time, professional officials. High school and college head coaches, on the other hand, make their living in baseball. We should recognize that fact in our dealings with them. Part of their duty is to defend their players, their school, their fans. Assistant coaches are also professionals, at least in Texas. They’re college graduates, they have teaching credentials, they are entitled to respect by virtue of their positions in the community. They are educators, not “rats.” Most of those posting in this thread are, strangely enough, enforcing a Little League rule, one that forbids assistants from coming out to discuss a play. But there is no comparable rule in either the NFHS or NCAA. Of course, we don’t allow two coaches on the field a one time. But if I make a dicey call on a play at first, (“He’s out. He’s out on the tag!”), and the assistant wants to find out what I saw, or argue that I saw it wrong, he’s entitled by the traditions of baseball to do so. It’s silly to say: “Get out of my face. I only talk to head coaches.” The head coach is all the way across the diamond. If he had rushed over to talk about the close tag play, some of the umpires on this Board would have said: “Get out of my face. From where you were, you couldn’t possibly see what happened.” Pretty good mechanics, huh? For one reason or another, I don’t have to discuss my call with anybody on defense.

2. In my association (109 members this year) a standard practice is: When the base umpire moves from A to B, he calls time at an appropriate moment and kicks the dirt off the pitcher’s plate. Several proposed actions in this thread, espoused as they were by amateur umpires, astonished me. But failing to clean the pitcher’s plate is at the top of the “surprise” list. I cannot think of any reason why an umpire wouldn’t do that. How does that detract from umpire dignity? When a catcher asks me if I would clean home plate, I am only too eager to comply. I ignore the fans – always. But coaches? Batters? Catchers? Likewise, a first-base coach says, “Carl, I can’t see the rubber.” “Time!” say I — and I clean that rubber. It’s simply the courteous thing to do. How long did it take? Why unnecessarily give the coach reason to complain? Umpires should not demand respect; they should earn it. Arrogance has no place on the amateur diamond.

3. My mother was fond of this saying from the Book of Proverbs in the Christian bible: “A soft answer turneth away wrath.” It requires but a moment of the umpire’s time for him to listen courteously to the coach — any coach. Those of you who are newcomers: If you want to succeed as a human being as well as an umpire, take the chips off your shoulders. React to repeated infractions; don’t overreact the first time a coach screws up — or you perceive he’s screwed up.

[Rich]

Originally posted by Carl Childress

IÂ’m posting this against my better judgment. I want it clearly understood from the outset that I will not respond to any posts growing out my message.

So why did you post it, then, Carl?

For all your many gifts, the ability to see anything in any way other than your own little myopic way is not one of them.

Regardless of what you do in Texico, in all the places I've lived it is common knowledge that an assistant coach does not leave his position and argue calls, especially after the head man has already done so. I am happy to tell an assistant what I saw provided he asks nicely and in the proper context. While I'm in the A position? Certainly. Interrupting the game and leaving his box? Never. Only the head man has that privilege. This has served me well. Since my first baseball game as a 13-year-old umpire in 1983, I have ejected exactly one assistant coach.

As far as brushing the pitcher's mound, what's the point? If the pitcher looks like he is on the mound, then he's on the mound. I'm not going to let him get away with anything untoward, so what's the point in cleaning the mound off? The pitchers around here use their gloves to clean off the mound anyway. And if you're proactive and get the plate between batters, you don't get asked to clean it. I can't remember the last time I was asked. Again, a clean plate is practically useless -- the pitcher, umpire, catcher, and hitter all know where the plate is, right?

It's great knowing that I'm going to get the last word with you, Carl, since you've already promised not to respond.

--Rich

[Edited by Rich Fronheiser on Apr 10th, 2004 at 04:14 PM]

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Jay R
I would like to add a couple of points.

First, remember that how you deal with an assistant coach says something about the person (umpire) you are. Many assistant coaches will become head coaches eventually. Treating them with respect is important I believe. However, I take less verbiage from an assistant than I do from a head coach. What I'm saying, be careful about saying that you not going to listen to them because they are an assistant coach.

I do not recall that anyone said not to listen to an assistant ever. We said (and I am mostly speaking for myself here) that we are not going to allow the same treatment from them. At least in my mind they are on a shorter leash. And whether or not the Assistant is going to be a head coach or not is not my concern. For one coaches come and go all the time. This is my 8th year and every year at some schools there are different coaches. And not all of them were assistants somewhere else.

Now when they become the head coach or if they become the head coach, then I will treat them accordingly. And that is why there are rules that dictate the behavior of the head coach and anyone that is not.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Carl Childress


Instead of pointing out specific statements from individual umpires, I want to explain a little about my philosophy of handing a game played by amateurs. ItÂ’s what I do, itÂ’s what I teach, and itÂ’s what I recommend you do.

1. For the most part those of us who post to this Board are not full-time, professional officials. High school and college head coaches, on the other hand, make their living in baseball.

This is not true Carl. Many of the coaches are not even teachers or employees of the schools they coach with. That depends on the rules of the school districts that have athletic programs. And many Assistants are volunteers just like the ones I had to day at the host school of my doubleheader. Two of the 3 assistants had other jobs than teaching and one was a year removed from college. So to automatically say they are making a living is a stretch. And I can tell you that from my experience in all sports I have worked.

Originally posted by Carl Childress
2. In my association (109 members this year) a standard practice is: When the base umpire moves from A to B, he calls time at an appropriate moment and kicks the dirt off the pitcher’s plate. Several proposed actions in this thread, espoused as they were by amateur umpires, astonished me. But failing to clean the pitcher’s plate is at the top of the “surprise” list. I cannot think of any reason why an umpire wouldn’t do that. How does that detract from umpire dignity? When a catcher asks me if I would clean home plate, I am only too eager to comply. I ignore the fans – always. But coaches? Batters? Catchers? Likewise, a first-base coach says, “Carl, I can’t see the rubber.” “Time!” say I — and I clean that rubber. It’s simply the courteous thing to do. How long did it take? Why unnecessarily give the coach reason to complain? Umpires should not demand respect; they should earn it. Arrogance has no place on the amateur diamond.

OK Carl, then you do it. It is your right to do so, but if they cannot see the rubber, it does not affect what I do or what I do not do. If I can see the plate or the rubber, I am not wiping them off. Just like if I make a call, I am not asking help from my partner because they want me to ask for help. I guess if they ask the base umpire to help me on a pitch, I should ask? You logic makes absolutely no sense.

Originally posted by Carl Childress
3. My mother was fond of this saying from the Book of Proverbs in the Christian bible: “A soft answer turneth away wrath.” It requires but a moment of the umpire’s time for him to listen courteously to the coach — any coach. Those of you who are newcomers: If you want to succeed as a human being as well as an umpire, take the chips off your shoulders. React to repeated infractions; don’t overreact the first time a coach screws up — or you perceive he’s screwed up.

What does that have to do with umpiring? We have a job to do, that job has expectations and mechanics. Because someone makes a request, does not mean we have to adhere to that request because they make it. I am sorry that it makes sense to you to do everything as an umpire, but I am not their servant or their butler. If they want certain things done, it is up to them to do it for themselves. I might do some things out of courtesy, but it is not my job description to wipe off the plate or the rubber at every request. Are you going to do that if they request such a thing after every pitch? I already know the answer to this one and most coaches no the answer to that one as well.

Peace

[GarthB]

Originally posted by Carl Childress

IÂ’m posting this against my better judgment. I want it clearly understood from the outset that I will not respond to any posts growing out my message.

IÂ’m not defending the actions of the assistant coach. Instead, I want to focus for a moment on the advice given him by several respected members of this Board.

Instead of pointing out specific statements from individual umpires, I want to explain a little about my philosophy of handing a game played by amateurs. ItÂ’s what I do, itÂ’s what I teach, and itÂ’s what I recommend you do.

1. For the most part those of us who post to this Board are not full-time, professional officials. High school and college head coaches, on the other hand, make their living in baseball. We should recognize that fact in our dealings with them. Part of their duty is to defend their players, their school, their fans. Assistant coaches are also professionals, at least in Texas. They’re college graduates, they have teaching credentials, they are entitled to respect by virtue of their positions in the community. They are educators, not “rats.” Most of those posting in this thread are, strangely enough, enforcing a Little League rule, one that forbids assistants from coming out to discuss a play. But there is no comparable rule in either the NFHS or NCAA. Of course, we don’t allow two coaches on the field a one time. But if I make a dicey call on a play at first, (“He’s out. He’s out on the tag!”), and the assistant wants to find out what I saw, or argue that I saw it wrong, he’s entitled by the traditions of baseball to do so. It’s silly to say: “Get out of my face. I only talk to head coaches.” The head coach is all the way across the diamond. If he had rushed over to talk about the close tag play, some of the umpires on this Board would have said: “Get out of my face. From where you were, you couldn’t possibly see what happened.” Pretty good mechanics, huh? For one reason or another, I don’t have to discuss my call with anybody on defense.

2. In my association (109 members this year) a standard practice is: When the base umpire moves from A to B, he calls time at an appropriate moment and kicks the dirt off the pitcher’s plate. Several proposed actions in this thread, espoused as they were by amateur umpires, astonished me. But failing to clean the pitcher’s plate is at the top of the “surprise” list. I cannot think of any reason why an umpire wouldn’t do that. How does that detract from umpire dignity? When a catcher asks me if I would clean home plate, I am only too eager to comply. I ignore the fans – always. But coaches? Batters? Catchers? Likewise, a first-base coach says, “Carl, I can’t see the rubber.” “Time!” say I — and I clean that rubber. It’s simply the courteous thing to do. How long did it take? Why unnecessarily give the coach reason to complain? Umpires should not demand respect; they should earn it. Arrogance has no place on the amateur diamond.

3. My mother was fond of this saying from the Book of Proverbs in the Christian bible: “A soft answer turneth away wrath.” It requires but a moment of the umpire’s time for him to listen courteously to the coach — any coach. Those of you who are newcomers: If you want to succeed as a human being as well as an umpire, take the chips off your shoulders. React to repeated infractions; don’t overreact the first time a coach screws up — or you perceive he’s screwed up.

I remember how, in the good old days on UT and then UT2, Carl used to say that he was a terrible base umpire. I used to think he was being modest. Today, however, I see that he was being honest.

[DownTownTonyBrown]

Personally, I like a clean rubber.

[jicecone]

I stated this on page one of this thread and now I see it fitting for ALL, regardless of the Title that you may carry on the field. Officials included.

"You earn respect. The arrogance of believing that you can demand it, is a personal problem that sooner or latter your going to have to deal with."

If the shoe fits....yadi yadi yada.

[David B]

Originally posted by Carl Childress
3. My mother was fond of this saying from the Book of Proverbs in the Christian bible: “A soft answer turneth away wrath.” It requires but a moment of the umpire’s time for him to listen courteously to the coach — any coach. Those of you who are newcomers: If you want to succeed as a human being as well as an umpire, take the chips off your shoulders. React to repeated infractions; don’t overreact the first time a coach screws up — or you perceive he’s screwed up.

What does that have to do with umpiring? We have a job to do, that job has expectations and mechanics. Because someone makes a request, does not mean we have to adhere to that request because they make it. I am sorry that it makes sense to you to do everything as an umpire, but I am not their servant or their butler. If they want certain things done, it is up to them to do it for themselves. I might do some things out of courtesy, but it is not my job description to wipe off the plate or the rubber at every request. Are you going to do that if they request such a thing after every pitch? I already know the answer to this one and most coaches no the answer to that one as well.

Peace [/B][/QUOTE]

It has a lot to do with umpiring. When the umpire is able to respond to the coach in a calm manner instead of the vigarious manner that is usually being used by the coach, then it has a calming effect on the coach.

I let the coach tell me his problem, and then calmly I say okay coach here's the rule, "...." now, lets play ball.

Surely we're not their servant, but by working with them it makes a heck of a lot better game.

You can stir the pot if you wish, but its not going to win you any points with the coaches or the players.

Thanks
DAvid

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by David B


It has a lot to do with umpiring. When the umpire is able to respond to the coach in a calm manner instead of the vigarious manner that is usually being used by the coach, then it has a calming effect on the coach.

We are not talking about yelling at coaches or not yelling at coaches. We are talking about allowing a coach who is not the head coach (and the rules make this clear as well) to complain about calls we make. It is not their job to do that, it is not about yelling back at them or telling them to shut up. If I go to court and yell at the judge, I should not expect him to keep me out of jail or possibly or just turn the other cheek. Well in the game, we are the judges and we should expect a certain decorum from everyone involved.

Originally posted by David B
I let the coach tell me his problem, and then calmly I say okay coach here's the rule, "...." now, lets play ball.

Surely we're not their servant, but by working with them it makes a heck of a lot better game.

This again is not about talking to them about calls. If I have discussed the call, I am not discussing it again. Sorry, but I am not. Communication is key to any officiating, but it is not our obligation to discuss every situation. As I said, if that is the case, do you discuss every pitch you call? And if you do not, why do you not discuss every call? For one it is against the rules and would slow up the game. Just like it is not the place of the coach that is not the head guy to be discussing calls that you made. Because all calls are not rule calls. If you make an out call, it is not about the rule, it is about your judgment and what you saw. I am sorry, I am not having a discussion with an Assistant about that call. Because if I do it once, I am going to be doing it all day.

Originally posted by David B
You can stir the pot if you wish, but its not going to win you any points with the coaches or the players.

Thanks
DAvid

David, have you been reading these posts? Stir what pot?

What are you talking about?

Peace

[MPC]

Just a late observation.

If you work at the pro level, you know that a coach (a guy who actually coaches a position) never argues a play. The manager/skipper takes care of that business. You call skippy "coach" and your face will be full of Levi before you can blink an eye. Likewise, the umpire isn't any particular color(blue, black, navy, red, cream, dazzle, etc. He puts his shoes, socks, pants, etc on the same way and happens to have a name. So, if the only way you are going to show respect for someone is to preface their name with coach or mr, you're not showing them much respect at all.

However, we aren't working the pro level and most of the coaches & umpires at the lower levels don't understand the customes of the real "Professionals." Plus, I can't read booger holler high's roster on the internet to learn the names of the guys I'm going to be dealing with. With that said, if I don't know a coaches name, I may call him coach or skip but make no mistake about it, he will NOT tell me what I CAN or CAN'T call him because there are a lot of things I CAN and WON'T call him. I don't like being called blue. I am a person and want to be treated like one but I understand that they may not know my name as well. Thus, I'm not going to tell a coach or player what to call me. I may say "You can call me Mark." I'm darn sure not going to say "You call me MR. Chapman." We're all adults. Even the teens are young adults. There are more ways to show respect than how one address anothers name.

Addressing the Pitchers Plate: What's wrong with "Hey Mark (or ump) we can't tell if the pitchers on the rubber. Would it be a problem to dust it off a bit?" Give him the opportunity to say sure I'll take care of it, go right ahead, or I'll let you know when he's not on the rubber.


As far as the comment about the call: What is being accomlished? I get tired of coaches coming out and saying no he was safe. Makes me want to say "Oh, well what do you need me here for?" I tell coaches in the pregame if they have a question about a call to request time and come ask. Notice I said ask. When a coach approaches me respectfully he gets treated respectfully. Such as:

Coach: "No Mark, that's wrong!!!"
Me: "Sit down!!! We're not talking judgement!!!"
or
Coach: "Mark, what did you have there???"
Me: "This is how I saw it...!!!"
He may still disagree with the outcome but there is no humanly way possible that he can argue what I saw and if I need to, I'll remind him of that!

I can be as big of a red __S as anyone if you put me in that position and I can be the most pleasant person around if you'll let me. Guess which one works out best for everyone involved???

As far as asst coaches go, I'll listen to them depending on the situation. If it's something that needs to be deferred to the head coach, I'll let him know. However, if I do take the time to give an explanation to an asst and the head guy comes out after the discussion, he gets to do an about face and gets nothing. If he says "I'm the head coach and you have to talk to me", I say "You had no business letting the asst do your work for you. He will be more than glad to explain to you what I told him."

It just takes one warning and don't forget that warnings come in a varity of forms. They don't have to be notarized.

[mcrowder]

I think there are a lot of officials in this thread that seem to be EAGER to eject a coach instead of run the game. I'm not advocating listening to constant barbs from an assistant coach. But if you're so sensitive that you get offended by a coach (or player for that matter) asking you to clean the rubber, you need to step it back a bit.

And to be honest, if I, as official, have offended an assistant coach by being familiar with him (i.e. using his first name), and he has the guts to ask me to call him coach, my response would likely be: "Sorry coach, I'll call you that going forward, but since you're an assistant coach, I shouldn't have to call you anything for the rest of the game." That should be warning enough.

On the other hand, the other piece of this incident - assistant coach questioning a call that had already been discussed.... GONE.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by mcrowder
I think there are a lot of officials in this thread that seem to be EAGER to eject a coach instead of run the game. I'm not advocating listening to constant barbs from an assistant coach. But if you're so sensitive that you get offended by a coach (or player for that matter) asking you to clean the rubber, you need to step it back a bit.

What does anyone that wants a standard of behavior, have to do with being EAGER to eject someone? When we are doing our job, we are suppose to treat coaches and players with respect. Telling me to clean up something that is not in my job discription, is not a way to show respect. I do not think it would be respectful to tell a coach to "sit down and shut up," and if an umpire said that I would expect a coach to be upset as well.

For the record I have ejected one Assistant Coach, which happen to be last year. And that was because he had the nearve to come all the way from his dugout position to home plate to argue a call. And it was his second incident that game after I had warned this coach for other comments. If I was so EAGAR to dump a coach, I would have don it the first time he made comments in that game. And I definitely last week would have had at least two ejections, for assistants that do not seem to know their place on a baseball field. This is not an issue of eagarness, it is an issue of what an Assistant can and cannot do. And it is not our job to listen to all the assistants after we have discussed a play with a Head Coach.

Peace