Ejection

[SMEngmann]

Hey everyone, I'm a basketball referee who reads the basketball forum regularly and I'm also a HS baseball coach and I wanted to ask your opinion on the following: Yesterday, I was ejected from a game for the first time as a coach, and I felt that the ejection was unwarrented, here's the scenario:

I knew the BU from my days in HS where he worked in the athletic department and I played and sometimes he seemed like he had a chip on his shoulder toward me, other times he was fine. In the 3rd inning, I'm coaching 1st and the LHP makes a pickoff move without stepping toward 1st. I ask if his foot was on the rubber, and then ask for the rubber to be dusted off and I get I costic response effectively telling me to shut up which shocked me because I wasn't even questioning a call. Later on, with my team in the field, there is a play at 2nd in which the throw beats the runner by a good 10 feet and the tag is down, but my 2B lifts up the tag slightly to avoid being spiked and BU calls the runner safe. The other coach argued at the time, and between innings as BU was walking toward 1st, I let him know that I thought the call was horrible because of the injury risk to the 2nd baseman. BU brushed me off and effectively gave me the stop sign, and in doing so referred to me by my first name. I felt that I wasn't being treated with the respect to warrant being called by my first name and I felt that doing so BU created an atmosphere of excessive familiarity, so I asked him to refer to me as "coach" from now on rather than by my first name, and as soon as I said that, he threw me out of the game.

I wonder what, given my context, some baseball umpires think of this ejection. I used no profanity, nor did I ever make a personal comment toward him. If I was officiating basketball, I couldn't justify giving a T. I feel that it is within my right as a coach to demand a certain level of respect from umpires, and I also think that, especially within the context of a conflict, that both parties should avoid familiarity. What do you guys think? Sorry for the long post.

[bob jenkins]

As I read this, you are the assistant coach. Is that correct?

If so, then your job is to tell the runners to turn left. Period.

It's not your job to ask that the rubber be cleaned off. It's not your job to tell the umpire that you thought the call was terrible (especially after he's already discussed it with the head coach).

While none of the actions individually warranted an EJ (as I read them), I can see where some umpires would judge the cummulative effects as warranting an EJ ("the straw that broke the camel's back).

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by SMEngmann
I wonder what, given my context, some baseball umpires think of this ejection. I used no profanity, nor did I ever make a personal comment toward him. If I was officiating basketball, I couldn't justify giving a T. I feel that it is within my right as a coach to demand a certain level of respect from umpires, and I also think that, especially within the context of a conflict, that both parties should avoid familiarity. What do you guys think? Sorry for the long post.

I complete agree with Bob here, but have to elaborate a bit.

It is a pretty common practice in all sports that I officiate and I know others officiate, that Assistant coaches are to be seen an not heard. It is that way in Basketball and it is that way in Football as well. So you might not have used profanity, but it is not the obligation of an umpire to first of all listen to a request from a coach period if they do not want to, but is seen in unconfrontable way when an Asst. does this. I know many that might have thrown you out for just questioning them on the issue of what the pitcher did in the first place. I myself tend to be strict, but at the HS level most coaches do not understand this concept, so I usually give them a second to correct the situation. A couple days ago I had an Head Coach and an Asst. Coach try to question me about a call I made, and I said very clearly to the Head Coach, "why is he talking to me about this?" The Head Coach made it clear for the Asst. to be quiet and the Asst. did not say another word. But I know umpires without hesitation would have ejected the Asst. on the spot for even daring to question a call. And I know Basketball officials that will T Asst. for saying anything that questions them in any way. I tend to not be that way, but I do make it very clear that I am only going to listen to one coach throughout the game.

I understand that might be frustrating for you, but it does not help the game or us as umpires to listen to 2 or 3 voices when there is a dispute actively going on. For one we are not going to hear everyone's point of view clearly or anyone's point of view if 2 or more coaches are talking. Secondly, I had to earn the right to become an umpire at the level of that game, if you want to have the right to argue with umpires, become a Head Coach at that level (and this goes for Varsity coaches acting as Assistants in JV and lower level games as well). And this seems to be a very common practice of all the officials that I know at different levels. At least in the area I live.

Peace

[Rich]

Originally posted by SMEngmann
Hey everyone, I'm a basketball referee who reads the basketball forum regularly and I'm also a HS baseball coach and I wanted to ask your opinion on the following: Yesterday, I was ejected from a game for the first time as a coach, and I felt that the ejection was unwarrented, here's the scenario:

I knew the BU from my days in HS where he worked in the athletic department and I played and sometimes he seemed like he had a chip on his shoulder toward me, other times he was fine. In the 3rd inning, I'm coaching 1st and the LHP makes a pickoff move without stepping toward 1st. I ask if his foot was on the rubber, and then ask for the rubber to be dusted off and I get I costic response effectively telling me to shut up which shocked me because I wasn't even questioning a call. Later on, with my team in the field, there is a play at 2nd in which the throw beats the runner by a good 10 feet and the tag is down, but my 2B lifts up the tag slightly to avoid being spiked and BU calls the runner safe. The other coach argued at the time, and between innings as BU was walking toward 1st, I let him know that I thought the call was horrible because of the injury risk to the 2nd baseman. BU brushed me off and effectively gave me the stop sign, and in doing so referred to me by my first name. I felt that I wasn't being treated with the respect to warrant being called by my first name and I felt that doing so BU created an atmosphere of excessive familiarity, so I asked him to refer to me as "coach" from now on rather than by my first name, and as soon as I said that, he threw me out of the game.

I wonder what, given my context, some baseball umpires think of this ejection. I used no profanity, nor did I ever make a personal comment toward him. If I was officiating basketball, I couldn't justify giving a T. I feel that it is within my right as a coach to demand a certain level of respect from umpires, and I also think that, especially within the context of a conflict, that both parties should avoid familiarity. What do you guys think? Sorry for the long post.

I stopped reading after you said you were the first base coach. Not really, but my answer didn't change after that.

If you are coaching first base, either you are a non-traditional head coach or are an assistant coach. If you are an assistant, your job (as Bob said) is to tell the runner to turn left. You have no role arguing with an umpire -- the only person we're going to discuss this with is the head coach.

I'm not a housekeeper. I don't brush pitchers mounds and I don't brush bases, although I may kick some dirt off while a runner is gathering himself after a slide.

On the tag at second base -- he can sidestep and leave the glove in there. Sorry, I don't buy the injury excuse. While I am a firm believer in the neighborhood play, if the fielder is pulling the glove up and being so sloppy he forces me to call the runner safe, I'll do just that.

So you ask the umpire to be a housekeeper, you tell him he made a horrible call, and you "demand" that he call you "coach." If you were the head coach I'd simply find you annoying, but as the assistant I'd run you too. But I would've definitely told you that you were on thin ice and reminded you of your assistant role when you commented on a call.

Basketball equivalent: How would you react if an assistant stood up and openly questioned your calls from the bench? How short would your leash be?

--Rich

[jicecone]

"I couldn't justify giving a T. I feel that it is within my right as a coach to demand a certain level of respect from umpires, and I also think that, especially within the context of a conflict, that both parties should avoid familiarity. What do you guys think? Sorry for the long post."

What I think is very simple, regardless of your position with the team.

You earn respect. The arrogance of beleiving that you can demand it, is a personal problem that sooner or latter your going to have to deal with.

Once you accomplish this, you will find out that you will be able to DISCUSS things in the latter innings of the game, because you will still be there.

[DownTownTonyBrown]

Sorry,
I agree with all of the above and would add a couple of comments.

Sounds like you think there is some 'history' between you and the BU. If you think so then there is. You need to get over that and forget whatever history there was.

Umpires are never keen on having a coach tell them what to do. NEVER. Just as coaches are never keen on having an official tell them what to do. NEVER. You can't tell an umpire to clean off the rubber without creating some ire. You can't demand/tell an umpire to address you a particular way without compounding that aggravation. And surely you recognize that you can't tell an umpire he made a bad call, (even if he did - although in this case there was no tag, purportedly for safety reasons BUT THAT IS YOUR JUDGEMENT and not the umpire's. And it is only the umpire's judgement that counts.) without exacerbating the situation even further.

Essentially, you told him he made a bad call when you asked for the rubber to be cleaned off.

"Rubber"... strike one
"bad tag call"... strike two
"Call me coach"... you're gone whipper snapper. History or no history. Some umpires may tolerate this or not feel a need to deal with it. Veterans will likely run you - even a head coach, with that last comment, stands a good chance of getting a ticket for the bus to home.

You might never receive respect from and umpire, especially if you don't give respect. Telling the umpire how to do his job will never gain respect. Given the "history" you will likely need to make the first concessions and show your respect for the umpire's job... and you may have to do this for a long time without any return respect. But such is life. Good luck!

[3appleshigh]

I have to say in many of my games up here in Canada I only deal with Coaches by first name. They can use mine or call be blue whatever they want. But I believe calling you by your first name in this instant was a warning that you were going too far and about to get run. You just supplied him a reason. Also My understanding is you were of some distance from him not having an up close conversation. Therefore you said loud enough for many to hear "Call me Coach!" I can't imagine too many umpire that would not chuck a coach for showing him up like that.

You are challenging his authority by that statement, he showed you who has the authority. Learn from it and go on.

[SMEngmann]

I appreciate the feedback, but my role on the team is not that of an assistant coach, more of a non-conventional head coach. I run the pitchers and the defense, the other coach is basically the offensive coordinator. Both of us are present in the pregame meeting with the umpires. Even if I were an assistant coach, I disagree with the notion that assistants should be treated as if they have no role by the umpires/referees. I agree with the argument that umpires should hear only one voice, but I also don't think that umpires should treat anyone associated with the game with any measure of disrespect when a reasonable question is asked. Same goes in basketball. If a basketball coach asks a question in a reasonable manner and doesn't show me up, I will let him speak. This conversation occurred between innings, and when the umpire told me that he heard enough about the call, I ceased to argue, although in my opinion, it wasn't handled professionally. Due to the way the manner was handled, I asked that the umpire refrain from calling me by my first name, again, a seemingly reasonable request unrelated to the play. To get tossed for that, in my opinion, is absurd. It is not the equivalent of an assistant coach in basketball rising to question a decision, that would be if the "assistant" charged onto the field from the dugout and started a face to face argument. I am a sports official, I don't show up umpires or treat them disrespectfully as I have been on the other side many times. However, I respect your opinions and will take them into account.

[GarthB]

"The other coach argued at the time, and between innings as BU was walking toward 1st, I let him know that I thought the call was horrible because of the injury risk to the 2nd baseman."

This is where the umpire indeed made a mistake. He should have tossed you right then.

As you admit, the other coach handled the matter. Discussion is closed. Not only did you re-open the topic you did it an insulting manner an one in which accused him of allowing a player to be put at risk. I am amazed you were still in the game at that point.

[Buckeye12]

If your name is indeed "Coach" is that how you introduced yourself at the plate meeting? Why would you even give your first name at introductions if you didn't want to be called that? I introduce myself as Ryan at the plate meeting when I work and actually would prefer coaches to refer to myslef by it; rather than "Hey blue" or "Ump." Maybe this is a personal opinion not widely agreed upon by other officials, but I find it more respectful if a coach takes the time to care who I am. Also, in return, I attempt to remember the coaches names and will refer to them by that. JMO. How do other officials feel about this?

[DownTownTonyBrown]

Originally posted by SMEngmann
... I also don't think that umpires should treat anyone associated with the game with any measure of disrespect
... I asked that the umpire refrain from calling me by my first name, again, a seemingly reasonable request unrelated to the play. To get tossed for that, in my opinion, is absurd. ...
I am a sports official, I don't show up umpires or treat them disrespectfully as I have been on the other side many times. However, I respect your opinions and will take them into account.

I agree with your first quoted statement above.

WHY did you request him to call you coach or not by your first name? This appears to be in the midst of an act of confrontation or effrontery; having not been there, I can't tell who started it but surely you continued the confrontation by your request to be called coach. That was not a step towards familiarity and respect (they seem to go together). This was a wrong move and you did disrespect him.

As an umpire, the bad tag deal would have been a safety concern for me. If you feel your defender was avoiding a malicious collision or being spiked, I would have raised that issue rather than worrying about the missed tag call. "Was that a legal slide? It looked like he had his cleats up in the air and I think that was why my guy got out of the way rather than making the tag and getting cut up. He was protecting himself by avoiding contact. That looked like, maybe, it could have been called an illegal slide."

Approaching a different facet of the play may have maintained your professional relationship.

You may have paid his wages but surely you recognize that you are not his boss. He is there to be impartial and equitable to both teams. If he tolerates you telling him to clean the rubber, and telling him to speak to you a certain way, he has to tolerate it from the other coaches too. And maybe the players too. And maybe the fans... Not a good situation.

These are obviously just my opinions, and I hope they help.

[SMEngmann]

Originally posted by GarthB
"The other coach argued at the time, and between innings as BU was walking toward 1st, I let him know that I thought the call was horrible because of the injury risk to the 2nd baseman."

This is where the umpire indeed made a mistake. He should have tossed you right then.

As you admit, the other coach handled the matter. Discussion is closed. Not only did you re-open the topic you did it an insulting manner an one in which accused him of allowing a player to be put at risk. I am amazed you were still in the game at that point.

You're right, the conversation should never have been restarted, but with regards to DownTownTonyBrown's post, my comments between innings, although they reflected what I felt of his call were directed at the injury concern for my 2B. The situation probably could have really been handled better on my end to avoid the confrontation, particularly given the umpire's demeanor toward me. It's my responsibility to know what the umpire's attitude is and act accordingly. While I still don't understand why my comment warranted ejection by itself, as I stopped the discussion when I was told and given the context, my actions were out of line in that situation and I should have known better than to re-address the situation at that point. I appreciate the feedback as it has helped me further understand the umpire's perspective, and although I am a sports official, it helps to listen to those who do baseball. I intend to be back here and to use this forum to discuss baseball umpiring as I use the basketball board for my basketball officiating. Thanks for the help.

[Edited by SMEngmann on Apr 8th, 2004 at 03:20 PM]

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by SMEngmann
I appreciate the feedback, but my role on the team is notI agree with the argument that umpires should hear only one voice, but I also don't think that umpires should treat anyone associated with the game with any measure of disrespect when a reasonable question is asked. Same goes in basketball. If a basketball coach asks a question in a reasonable manner and doesn't show me up, I will let him speak.

Speaking to an umpire/official with one voice is not being disrespectful in any way. Our job is hard enough to then be questioned by an individual that did not attend the pregame meeting (where this might be addressed). It is not our job to make everyone happy. I am not going to allow a player to step out of line, you are not that much different. We already allow head coaches to question us from time to time, which if we choose to is prohibited by the rules, but to allow an Asst. Coach to do the same, after the Head coach made his point? You must be sick if you think that should be allowed.

Originally posted by SMEngmann
This conversation occurred between innings, and when the umpire told me that he heard enough about the call, I ceased to argue, although in my opinion, it wasn't handled professionally.

Even more of a reason to get tossed. You should not even be having a conversation with an umpire when the game is in between innings.

Originally posted by SMEngmann
Due to the way the manner was handled, I asked that the umpire refrain from calling me by my first name, again, a seemingly reasonable request unrelated to the play.

I agree that calling you by your first name is not a good thing. But I think adults allow this way too much in the first place, and allow many kids to call them by their first name. I agree that umpires as players and coaches should be more formal, but this is another discussion all together.

Originally posted by SMEngmann
To get tossed for that, in my opinion, is absurd. It is not the equivalent of an assistant coach in basketball rising to question a decision, that would be if the "assistant" charged onto the field from the dugout and started a face to face argument.

You need to go and read the rulebook in both baseball and basketball. It is technically against the rules to question an umpire or official when they are making decisions. Now of course we allow some questions to be asked, but not from an Asst. Coach. At least not the many umpires and officials that have extensive experience that I know. And most experienced coaches will not allow their Asst. Coach to even question an official or umpire.

Originally posted by SMEngmann
I am a sports official, I don't show up umpires or treat them disrespectfully as I have been on the other side many times. However, I respect your opinions and will take them into account.

Well you do not have to show up and umpire to be ejected. But then again, that is the reason we are having this discussion. I for one am not expecting you to accept everything I say, but if you understand that many feel that way, you might think twice when you confront an umpire. And being a official does not give you a pass either. I usually expect more from fellow officials and expect them to know things that non-officials that coach do not. But then again, you rolled the dice and the umpire made sure you crapped out. Maybe the next guy will not make an issue, but this one did. And that is all that matters.

Peace

[DG]

I see nothing to justify an ejection. The guy had a burr under his saddle. Contary to popular opinion here, I treat all coaches, assistant or otherwise, as people. I will be happy to have a serious discussion with an assistant or a head coach, makes no difference to me. But the head coach better arrive soon, if I am having a discussion with an assistant because tossing an assistant will be an easy decision. But in this case, as described, I would have ignored you.

[jumpmaster]

"...and between innings as BU was walking toward 1st, I let him know that I thought the call was horrible because of the injury risk to the 2nd baseman..."

Coach,
what exactly did you hope to accomplish by making this statement?

I give you two strikes. 1) you picked up the arguement after your partner, co-coach, assistant finished it. 2) You called my call horrible, you have put me on the defensive...Lesson in dealing with people, don't put them on the defensive, it produces bad "ju ju"...

These two strikes with your house-cleaning instructions make my decision an easy one - it is time to clean my house - you are gone.