A simple yes or no......

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

The plate umpire said he was so in shock, he went completely blank on what he saw and the only thing he could do was single safe. He said to this day he has no idea if she was safe or out at first, but since he could not see her out (or remember what he saw), he had to call her safe.

Shame on the PU.

I always pregame this (BU at C, pickoff throw to first) with my partner. At the higher levels (high school, college, good travel ball, etc.), this play can happen a couple of times a game. There should be no reason a PU goes blank on this play.

One colleague of mine whom I've worked with on many occasions up to and including Juco ball wants the PU to take this call as a deviation of the normal mechanic.

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Shame on the PU.

I always pregame this (BU at C, pickoff throw to first) with my partner. At the higher levels (high school, college, good travel ball, etc.), this play can happen a couple of times a game. There should be no reason a PU goes blank on this play.

One colleague of mine whom I've worked with on many occasions up to and including Juco ball wants the PU to take this call as a deviation of the normal mechanic.

From what I was told, yes they pre-gamed the situation of the umpire being in the C position and a pick off play at first. What was not pre-gamed was a yell across the infield "Bad angle". That is not how it should be handled in any way, shape or form at any level, let alone a pair of solid varsity programs. That was why he went blank, simply because the shock of how he was asked if she saw something different, not because he didn't see the play.


My understanding in this situation is that one of two things should happen. When the BU in the C position has a call like this at first he can either 1) make the call the best he can (most likely going to be safe if he can't see an out) and then call time and ask the PU if he saw anything different or 2) make the call the best he can and then wait for the defensive coach to possibly come out and ask for him to check with his partner to see if the PU had anything different.

The one thing you never do is yell across the infield Bad Angle, Didn't See it, I don't know, or anything like that.

Also, umpire to umpire communications across the diamond should be limited to signals and not verbal communications (in regards to calls). These include appeals on a checked swing (safe or out signal) or infield fly on or off signal. The only time verbal communication should be used across the infield is when there is an alteration to a normal position procedure (Going out, I've got third, ect).

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

From what I was told, yes they pre-gamed the situation of the umpire being in the C position and a pick off play at first. What was not pre-gamed was a yell across the infield "Bad angle". That is not how it should be handled in any way, shape or form at any level, let alone a pair of solid varsity programs. That was why he went blank, simply because the shock of how he was asked if she saw something different, not because he didn't see the play.

Well, if I were to go blank for every unexpected thing a partner of mine said or did, I would be catatonic practically every other game. C'mon, yelling "Bad angle" isn't something to get shocked about to the point that you can't help with a call!

Originally Posted by chapmaja

Also, umpire to umpire communications across the diamond should be limited to signals and not verbal communications (in regards to calls). These include appeals on a checked swing (safe or out signal)...

Well, you're wrong on that one. On a checked swing appeal, the PU verbally asks his/her partner, "Did she go?" and the BU responds with a verbal "Yes" or "No" along with the out/safe mechanic. Are you telling me you don't do that in your games? There's also verbal communications and not just signals when one partner asks the other for the correct count or number of outs. Partner-to-partner communications uses both signals and verbal requests. And in times when a verbal is not expected, a good umpire won't go into fugue state when it happens.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Well, if I were to go blank for every unexpected thing a partner of mine said or did, I would be catatonic practically every other game. C'mon, yelling "Bad angle" isn't something to get shocked about to the point that you can't help with a call!

Ehh... I'm not usually the first guy to jump in defense of Chap ... but "Bad Angle!" would throw me too for at least a second or two. Kind of like "TIE!!!" did last summer.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Ehh... I'm not usually the first guy to jump in defense of Chap ... but "Bad Angle!" would throw me too for at least a second or two. Kind of like "TIE!!!" did last summer.

But would you have zoned out so much that you would have missed the call? That's my point.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Manny A

But would you have zoned out so much that you would have missed the call? That's my point.

I don't think I would have zoned out. I'm sure, however, that I would not be making a call before getting together with my partner. I don't know if "bad angle!" would cause me to react with a verbal call of my own... it would confuse me - I'd be wondering what he meant.

It would definitely be a cluster-F.

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

(snip)
My understanding in this situation is that one of two things should happen. When the BU in the C position has a call like this at first he can either
1) make the call the best he can (most likely going to be safe if he can't see an out) and then call time and ask the PU if he saw anything different or
2) make the call the best he can and then wait for the defensive coach to possibly come out and ask for him to check with his partner to see if the PU had anything different.
(snip).

Personally, I wouldn't use 1) - if I'm going to make the call, I wouldn't imediately second guess myself.
If I had any doubts, I would be open to 2) - checking with my partner on a coach's request.

There is also option 3) - which has been discussed back and forth over the years in my HS association - and that is:
BEFORE making the call (but after visually making sure my partner is trailing), loudly asking my partner, "Did she hold the bag?"
or in the case of a possible swipe tag "Did you see a tag?"
The answer should be a yes or no with the proper signal.

This would only happen if it is pre-gamed and understood and I am working with a partner I can trust.
I'm still not sure if this is a deviation from HS (or ASA) mechanics or an accepted method.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by HugoTafurst

There is also option 3) - which has been discussed back and forth over the years in my HS association - and that is:
BEFORE making the call (but after visually making sure my partner is trailing), loudly asking my partner, "Did she hold the bag?"
or in the case of a possible swipe tag "Did you see a tag?"
The answer should be a yes or no with the proper signal.

This would only happen if it is pre-gamed and understood and I am working with a partner I can trust.
I'm still not sure if this is a deviation from HS (or ASA) mechanics or an accepted method.

This is an accepted mechanic in most of the baseball organizations I've worked for. But in softball, I've been instructed that we should never ask for help from our partner first before we make the call.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Manny A

This is an accepted mechanic in most of the baseball organizations I've worked for. But in softball, I've been instructed that we should never ask for help from our partner first before we make the call.

Same here. For both.

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Same here. For both.

You mean the same as Manny said, OK for BB, not OK for SB?Or do you mean one of those (OK or not OK) applies to both SB & BB.

Like I said, this has been discussed back and forth over the years in my HS association (Softball Association), including input from a (now former) state evaluator) and I don't think we ever reached a conclusion.

I've been to a couple of NUS weekends since this first came up, but always forget to ask.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by HugoTafurst

You mean the same as Manny said, OK for BB, not OK for SB?Or do you mean one of those (OK or not OK) applies to both SB & BB.

Like I said, this has been discussed back and forth over the years in my HS association (Softball Association), including input from a (now former) state evaluator) and I don't think we ever reached a conclusion.

I've been to a couple of NUS weekends since this first came up, but always forget to ask.

I meant the same as Manny said.