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Old Sat Aug 22, 2009, 10:05am
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(From 2020)While Smokey Gets Another Cold One....

.....well, I'm sure they are cold when he starts typing

My view:

I don't have a problem with an ASA umpire working NCAA or NFHS. I do have a problem with an ASA umpire working the other alphabets while NOT supporting ASA.

I have seen umpires suck up the umpire training and development from ASA and completely dismiss working any ASA games. IMO, if you want to work AFA, NSA, SNA, ISC, USFA, PONY, USSSA and not ASA, you should go to them for training. I'm sure it sounds ridiculous to some of you, but some of these organizations have hijacked ASA's training and used it as their own. This is the reason commissioners are to sign off on applications to the Biennial National UIC Clinic.

I am disappointed that when NCAA initiated a softball umpiring program, ASA was summarily dismissed. As related to me at the first satellite clinic, the NCAA didn't want to be perceived as using umpires "that worked little girl's games". Just where do they think THEIR players and THEIR umpires started? Shame on both ASA and the NCAA for not getting together and working out a partnership here. However, with the arrogance often shown at the NCAA level of operations, that probably would never happen.

I don't get umpires, and there are a few even in my small little area, who reach NCAA ball and all of a sudden, they are too good or elevated to be involved as something so menial as ASA ball.

It amazes me how some umpires can adjust work and social schedules, spend a fair amount of money to make that much more working games miles and hours away, but cannot set aside a few hours a year to attend a clinic or two which is being held for one reason only and that is to help umpires keep sharp and up to date. And before someone says it, simply working games does not keep an umpire sharp. If anything, that is where the umpire tends to become lazy especially toward the end of a long season. All of a sudden they are working a playoff game and someone points out a few flaws of which the umpire wasn't aware.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bestviewofall View Post
As far as the ASA discussion going on: I cannot believe that they would have any grievances against umpires that work this tournament or elsewhere.
I believe that would depend on the circumstances and any issues in their local association (state/metro). Selections, and the processed utilized, for championship play, including nationals, varies by association. AFAIC, there are three requirements to be sent away to a tournament: 1) ASA National School, 2) support (umpire) the State/Metro Championship Tournaments and 3) knowledge and proper application of ASA rules and mechanics.

What an umpire does on the weekends that I cannot put him/her on the field is their business and if they want to work for XYZ, that is up to them. However, when I need that umpire for a state tournament, I should not have to fight to get them to work a few games.

If you haven't figured it out, I'm a firm believer in the old expression and the many quoted variations of loyalty, "Dance with the one that brung ya". Or in the case of umpiring, "movin' up doesn't have to mean movin' on."
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Old Sat Aug 22, 2009, 10:22am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA View Post
.....well, I'm sure they are cold when he starts typing

My view:

I don't have a problem with an ASA umpire working NCAA or NFHS. I do have a problem with an ASA umpire working the other alphabets while NOT supporting ASA.

I have seen umpires suck up the umpire training and development from ASA and completely dismiss working any ASA games. IMO, if you want to work AFA, NSA, SNA, ISC, USFA, PONY, USSSA and not ASA, you should go to them for training. I'm sure it sounds ridiculous to some of you, but some of these organizations have hijacked ASA's training and used it as their own. This is the reason commissioners are to sign off on applications to the Biennial National UIC Clinic.

I am disappointed that when NCAA initiated a softball umpiring program, ASA was summarily dismissed. As related to me at the first satellite clinic, the NCAA didn't want to be perceived as using umpires "that worked little girl's games". Just where do they think THEIR players and THEIR umpires started? Shame on both ASA and the NCAA for not getting together and working out a partnership here. However, with the arrogance often shown at the NCAA level of operations, that probably would never happen.

I don't get umpires, and there are a few even in my small little area, who reach NCAA ball and all of a sudden, they are too good or elevated to be involved as something so menial as ASA ball.

It amazes me how some umpires can adjust work and social schedules, spend a fair amount of money to make that much more working games miles and hours away, but cannot set aside a few hours a year to attend a clinic or two which is being held for one reason only and that is to help umpires keep sharp and up to date. And before someone says it, simply working games does not keep an umpire sharp. If anything, that is where the umpire tends to become lazy especially toward the end of a long season. All of a sudden they are working a playoff game and someone points out a few flaws of which the umpire wasn't aware.



I believe that would depend on the circumstances and any issues in their local association (state/metro). Selections, and the processed utilized, for championship play, including nationals, varies by association. AFAIC, there are three requirements to be sent away to a tournament: 1) ASA National School, 2) support (umpire) the State/Metro Championship Tournaments and 3) knowledge and proper application of ASA rules and mechanics.

What an umpire does on the weekends that I cannot put him/her on the field is their business and if they want to work for XYZ, that is up to them. However, when I need that umpire for a state tournament, I should not have to fight to get them to work a few games.

If you haven't figured it out, I'm a firm believer in the old expression and the many quoted variations of loyalty, "Dance with the one that brung ya". Or in the case of umpiring, "movin' up doesn't have to mean movin' on."


I couldnt agree with you more...... Occasionally you get one right..... :-)
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  #3 (permalink)  
Old Sat Aug 22, 2009, 10:28am
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Well I agree with Darrell.. and .. not much more to be added to your post mike. Well said.
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Old Sat Aug 22, 2009, 10:34am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wadeintothem View Post
Well I agree with Darrell.. and .. not much more to be added to your post mike. Well said.
Lets not make this a habit..Im used to you being wrong....
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  #5 (permalink)  
Old Sat Aug 22, 2009, 01:15pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA View Post
.....It amazes me how some umpires can adjust work and social schedules, spend a fair amount of money to make that much more working games miles and hours away, but cannot set aside a few hours a year to attend a clinic or two which is being held for one reason only and that is to help umpires keep sharp and up to date.
Not to mention those who ump HS & NCAA, but won't show up for travel or other "summer" ball because of the lower fees.
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Old Sat Aug 22, 2009, 01:25pm
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The OP includes "And before someone says it, simply working games does not keep an umpire sharp. If anything, that is where the umpire tends to become lazy especially toward the end of a long season. All of a sudden they are working a playoff game and someone points out a few flaws of which the umpire wasn't aware."

My sig certainly agrees with not just working. Feedback and critiques are needed, along with the refresher instruction Mike is promoting. However, actual umpiring does keep us sharp and rust sets in quickly. Also, umpiring other sanctions keeps the basics sharp, even if the differences need review going from one to the other.

Don't know where the lazy part comes from, don't think I get lazy, but maybe because of just weekends after school season.
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  #7 (permalink)  
Old Sat Aug 22, 2009, 02:59pm
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Mike,

Believe it or not, I too agree with your points. If an ASA trained umpire shuns the group that trained them to go work age group ball elsewhere, that does not sit well. I, for one, know dozens of us that work softball every weekend throughout the year. Other than NCAA, 98.6 percent of the rest is ASA. At every level asked.

When our local ASA association had the clinics and camps in January before the NCAA season started, we all were there. Even in the years when we weren't required.

Unfortunately, they stopped having that early season mechanics camps and we made the choice to keep our college weekend intact rather than become tournament certified.

As I am not "championship certified" I am seldom asked to work championship play. But, as the past proves, anytime they are in a pinch, I provided whatever help I can.

If I missed any points, forgive me. I am in the middle of watching my son's game. Sober.

Smokey
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Old Sat Aug 22, 2009, 07:36pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bestviewofall View Post
Mike,

Believe it or not, I too agree with your points. If an ASA trained umpire shuns the group that trained them to go work age group ball elsewhere, that does not sit well. I, for one, know dozens of us that work softball every weekend throughout the year. Other than NCAA, 98.6 percent of the rest is ASA. At every level asked.

When our local ASA association had the clinics and camps in January before the NCAA season started, we all were there. Even in the years when we weren't required.

Unfortunately, they stopped having that early season mechanics camps and we made the choice to keep our college weekend intact rather than become tournament certified.

As I am not "championship certified" I am seldom asked to work championship play. But, as the past proves, anytime they are in a pinch, I provided whatever help I can.

If I missed any points, forgive me. I am in the middle of watching my son's game. Sober.

Smokey
Smokey,

Please understand and accept that I was not referring to you or referencing your post.

You simply provided a segue to a point of passion which I have concerning umpires and their priorities/loyalties. Many on this board are aware of those feelings, did not mean to rile you.

Last edited by IRISHMAFIA; Sat Aug 22, 2009 at 07:38pm.
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Old Sat Aug 22, 2009, 09:12pm
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Mike,
It's getting late Saturday and I've had a few of those cold ones.
I'd hope that I'm in an unusual situation/area in ASA - I know that Big Slick's area is very different and I believe your whole state is very different. And I really hope that my ASA district commissioner is unique. I do not work local league games any more - just so I'm not seen as supporting something the local commissioner does. I do go watch a number of those games, because umpires in my local chapter are working them and they just might watch to hear what I've seen. I attend the district/state clinic each year and went to a national school and I'll do one or two state tournaments a year. That's all done no good as far as advancing to an ASA national. The high schoold and college seasons do not conflict with any summer schedules, so there's no issue there. I go to PONY and ISC weekends and have done pretty well with those groups. I've even gotten into NPF ball this year. I no longer hope for or expect anything from ASA - it's a waste of time for anyone in PA's district 4. And, at this point in time, I just don't care any more. However, I'm still arrogant enough to think I would have represented ASA pretty well.
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Old Sat Aug 22, 2009, 09:21pm
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It seems to me someone should kick some tail in PA. Its a disgrace.
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  #11 (permalink)  
Old Sat Aug 22, 2009, 09:43pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA View Post
Smokey,

Please understand and accept that I was not referring to you or referencing your post.

You simply provided a segue to a point of passion which I have concerning umpires and their priorities/loyalties. Many on this board are aware of those feelings, did not mean to rile you.
Mike, after watching a little Mighty Mite football this afternoon (my 8-old got only 6 sacs, an off day) I had a frosty barely pop or two with the team fathers. After that, I took the long drive home and suddenly, it hit me. You weren't blasting me. You were blasting the people you discribed. I'm sorry for the outlandish defense.

But (I'm simply playing devil's advocate here, so please play along nicely), you gotta admit, it is both enticing and a lot easier to justify leaving the wife and kids for another weekend to make a couple thousand dollars than it is to make $200-$300 or volunteer elsewhere.

It is NOT ABOUT THE MONEY, but it is something to think about.

You know that I'm non-confrontational, so pretend that this is someone else that just ticked you off, OK?

Smokey
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Old Sat Aug 22, 2009, 10:14pm
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when your talking 2 grand in a w/e thats straight scrilla and thats about the money. I'm all about that.


One thing I've found with SOME pac10 guys though... once they come back to ASA/lower pay stuff... sometimes you will hear the ole ... if this was a college game I'd be making such and such and would do such and such.

So sometimes its not really worth while to have the big pac 10 guy on the field at a nonNCAA event.

Plus if they see a D1 coach in the stands, that have to go nuzzle the ole brown eye a little between innings..

SOME OF THEM.. definitely not all, because plenty of PAC10 umps have taught me invaluable stuff.
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Last edited by wadeintothem; Sat Aug 22, 2009 at 10:24pm.
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Old Sat Aug 22, 2009, 11:30pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wadeintothem View Post
when your talking 2 grand in a w/e thats straight scrilla and thats about the money. I'm all about that.


One thing I've found with SOME pac10 guys though... once they come back to ASA/lower pay stuff... sometimes you will hear the ole ... if this was a college game I'd be making such and such and would do such and such.

So sometimes its not really worth while to have the big pac 10 guy on the field at a nonNCAA event.

Plus if they see a D1 coach in the stands, that have to go nuzzle the ole brown eye a little between innings..

SOME OF THEM.. definitely not all, because plenty of PAC10 umps have taught me invaluable stuff.
I would love to say that I have never seen that. But, I cannot say that. Different philosophies for different umpires.

For other umpires, every game is the most important game that is being played that day, and they give every thing they have. I like to work with those umpires.

This spring a 3-time WCWS umpire was identified while working a one-man 10u game. When the parent asked the umpire why in the world they are there for that game, the umpire responded, "For the same reason, you are. For them".

I love that story.

That is why we umpire....

Smokey
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Old Sun Aug 23, 2009, 01:17am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wadeintothem View Post
One thing I've found with SOME pac10 guys though... once they come back to ASA/lower pay stuff... sometimes you will hear the ole ... if this was a college game I'd be making such and such and would do such and such.

SOME OF THEM.. definitely not all, because plenty of PAC10 umps have taught me invaluable stuff.
I think umpires in my area may be lucky in this regard. I work HS games with partners I know have been everywhere and worked everything, but you would never know it unless you asked them. They just go out and work their game and show how good they are.

This is why I don't go talking about how I've done this game, I've been to that tournament: Eventually you'll run into an umpire whose resume puts yours to shame. I just go out and do the best I can.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bestviewofall View Post
This spring a 3-time WCWS umpire was identified while working a one-man 10u game. When the parent asked the umpire why in the world they are there for that game, the umpire responded, "For the same reason, you are. For them".

I love that story.

That is why we umpire....

Smokey
I like that story too.
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Old Sun Aug 23, 2009, 11:01am
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SteveM is in a unique situation and I understand from where he is coming. Personally, I would probably take a different approach and work ASA ball just to irritate that particular person. But that is me just being the obnoxious smart *** I can be.

We all umpire for different reasons. In my 43 years of umpiring, I have never worked for the money or the players. Whether it was baseball or softball, I umpired for the game. Have I worked games for nothing? Yep. Would I work every game for nothing? Nope. Regardless of the reason, I don't believe there is a real sports official who at one time or another receive and work an assignment they would rather not have worked. But we do the game anyway because as with everything in life, there is always a less attractive side which must be accommodated.

When I umpire, whether locally or on the road, there is no need to justify the assignment, it is well known I umpire because it is what I do. OTOH, I will not seek nor accept an assignment which will place a financial burden on my family.

Back to the point, umpires need to exercise some sense of loyalty to those placing them in a position to do well on the field. And yes, my area is a bit different from others as (and I know you are probably tired of hearing this) all training save a State School is open to all and free of charge. Unfortunately, that may change before next season.
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