Extending the Period/Game

[Suudy]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

We need to clarify the part I bold faced above. Was the player of B already offside when the neutral zone was established, or did B encroach after the RFP?

As I recall, they lined up offsides. It wasn't like they were rushing to try and get back on their side of the ball. The defensive tackle lined up in the NZ.

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

If B was offside and hadn't returned to onside, yet the ball was made ready for team A which was hurrying, is that a dead ball foul, or a foul that occurs while the ball is being put in play? Should the ball have been made RFP under those circumstances?

No hurry. We stopped the clock to move the chains. Everyone was on their own side of the ball, ready to go. My U was standing over the ball waiting for me, reminding the center to wait for the whistle. I pointed to the U, he backed off, and I chopped it in. Just as the ball was snapped, the wing threw the flag.

But perhaps it was nitpicky. It was obvious they were going to spike the ball (the QB was making the usual spiking motion as they came down field). Encroachment gained them no advantage. And the B coach didn't complain about the call.

[Reffing Rev.]

Originally Posted by Suudy

As I recall, they lined up offsides. It wasn't like they were rushing to try and get back on their side of the ball. The defensive tackle lined up in the NZ.


No hurry. We stopped the clock to move the chains. Everyone was on their own side of the ball, ready to go. My U was standing over the ball waiting for me, reminding the center to wait for the whistle. I pointed to the U, he backed off, and I chopped it in. Just as the ball was snapped, the wing threw the flag.

But perhaps it was nitpicky. It was obvious they were going to spike the ball (the QB was making the usual spiking motion as they came down field). Encroachment gained them no advantage. And the B coach didn't complain about the call.

Well...there is a popular mechanic to wait to flag encroachment at or near the snap for players lining up in the NZ, in this case, if your defensive tackle was lined up in the NZ when you chopped it in, the 2 seconds should have never ran off, he was offside, should have flagged and killed the clock right there (or reset to 08 from 06, although if you started the clock at 08 and he jumped in at 06 then no reset). The penalty with the clock running would keep it running on the ready, but if a penalty gives a team an advantage with the clock the R has the authority to start or not start the clock. B's foul gave them an additional advantage by keeping A from "clocking" the ball. Yes they could have clocked it on the ready, but the door is open for B to 'abuse' the clock.
As I read through the thread I was thinking I'd have done almost everything as you had (except adding the 2 seconds) but upon reading this post, I would have added the 2 seconds, "scolded" my wing for letting those 2 seconds run off the clock, and start on the snap.

And a coach can request a conference up until the quarter/game has officially ended. I know most of the time the officials just sprint off the field at the end of the game, but we do have a signal to officially end the game...

NFHS 3.3.5 At the end of each period the referee SHALL hold the ball in one hand overhead to indicate the period has officially ended, after delaying momentarily to ensure that: a. No foul has occured; b. No obvious timing error has occured; No request for a coach-referee conference has occured; d. No other irregularity has occured.

emphasis mine, its not a may but a shall, so I use it, I take the opportunity to make eye contact with each of my crew, each sideline and collect a football and give the sign and then I sprint off the field. I would hate to sprint off the field and have to sprint back because my BJ who was 100 yards from the lockerroom got caught up in a coach referee conference, or had flagged an IP on the last play and we all missed it. We enter as a crew and leave as a crew.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by Suudy

As I recall, they lined up offsides. It wasn't like they were rushing to try and get back on their side of the ball. The defensive tackle lined up in the NZ.

No hurry. We stopped the clock to move the chains. Everyone was on their own side of the ball, ready to go. My U was standing over the ball waiting for me, reminding the center to wait for the whistle. I pointed to the U, he backed off, and I chopped it in. Just as the ball was snapped, the wing threw the flag.

So everyone was on their own side of the ball, the neutral zone began, and then one of the B players entered it to line up? Why would that not be whistled dead.

Or were you not serious about everyone's having been on their own side of the ball as the NZ was set? What I'm trying to figure out is why the ball was allowed to be snapped.

If team B was getting set before team A, why wasn't there some preventive officiating via warning in the case of the DT?

[HLin NC]

Robert, there is no way a wing can "preventatively officiate" a DT lining up in the NZ. He's too far away to hear us if we tried. The U isn't going to really know unless he's way off into the NZ.

A DE or LB creeping up might can hear us if he's paying some attention and knows his uniform number. (don't laugh, lots of kids seem to have no idea what their number is, particularly early in the season or if they are MS or JV's)

[Texas Aggie]

Under NCAA rules, we don't have a dead ball foul for simple offsides, so we'll just assume it was offsides with contact, causing a dead ball foul and stopped clock at 6 like the OP said.

First, no time is put on the clock. 2 seconds is reasonable in that situation. We mark off 5 yards, then I tell both teams that the clock will start on the ready. If A does not get the play off, that's on them. As soon as a RFP is blown, we have a new play and its THAT play that is determinative as to whether we extend the period.

Second, defensive foul has nothing to do with whether the period ends. Its a down free from live ball fouls. The down, by definition, starts at the ready for play.

[parepat]

We've been told in situations like this to give A the oppurtunity to snap the ball. In this case, they would have gotten another play if B hadn't fouled. Therefore we make it very clear to the coach that the clock will start on the whistle and that they need to get on the ball. Then I will hold the RFP for a reasonable period of time. No need to make trouble for yourself.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by parepat

We've been told in situations like this to give A the oppurtunity to snap the ball. In this case, they would have gotten another play if B hadn't fouled. Therefore we make it very clear to the coach that the clock will start on the whistle and that they need to get on the ball. Then I will hold the RFP for a reasonable period of time. No need to make trouble for yourself.

Parepat, if I'm not mistaken you're in Ohio. Can I ask who "told" you to use that approach? Is it an association thing, or did someone from the state tell you?

[parepat]

I was referring to NCAA with the new 10 second runoff rule. If after the 10 second runoff there are only a few seconds to play, we are to make all efforts to allow A to get a play off. You are right, I am in Ohio and I should have been more specific in my post. I believe that this approach translates to NFHS as well, especially when B fouls.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by HLin NC

Robert, there is no way a wing can "preventatively officiate" a DT lining up in the NZ. He's too far away to hear us if we tried. The U isn't going to really know unless he's way off into the NZ.

A DE or LB creeping up might can hear us if he's paying some attention and knows his uniform number. (don't laugh, lots of kids seem to have no idea what their number is, particularly early in the season or if they are MS or JV's)

I still don't understand the mechanics of the situation, and don't even have the situation clear yet.

AIUI, both teams were onside at the instant the ball was made ready for play, correct?

Next question is, when the DT entered the neutral zone, was the snapper on the ball, near the ball, or was team A not even close to lined up yet?

If team A was not even close, why didn't the wing official (How many do you have in freshman football?) come in to shoo the DT out of the NZ?

If the snapper was on the ball, why wasn't it whistled dead?

The only remaining possibility is that team A was coming to the line in a hurry and close to it when the DT entered the NZ. Is that what it was, and was the course followed, i.e. flagging encroachment as the ball is put in play, correct? It seems like Fed rules are geared as much as possible to avoiding such a situation, but is this the one little gap they left that makes it happen?

If that last condition is what actually applied, then why isn't that a foul that occurred as part of the live ball portion of the down, allowing team A an untimed down if they wind up needing it to put the ball in play?

Or does what Reffing Rev. wrote apply? I.e. does the encroachment prevent the ball from being put in play?

[HLin NC]

Encroachment is a dead ball foul in Fed ball, snap can't go off. In so far as the clock goes, if the clock was running and stopped for the dead ball enc. foul, it should have started on the RFP and there should not have been two seconds put back on is the way I understand the play in question.

With that little time and A I assume was in some semblance of a hurry, I can't foresee a wing wanting to run in and "shoo" a DT back.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by ODJ

The down begins with the RFP. B encroaches during the down. 3-3-3 says the period is extended because of an accepted penalty.

The down begins with the snap or free kick.

[Suudy]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

So everyone was on their own side of the ball, the neutral zone began, and then one of the B players entered it to line up? Why would that not be whistled dead.

Ok, I'll clear things up for you with excruciating detail.

We had a 1/10 from about A's 30. We had a completion to midfield in the middle of the field with a short run ending at B's 40. We stopped the clock to move the chains. A and B hustled down the field. The A QB is making a spiking motion and yelling a formation and snap count. My U is standing over the ball waiting for the chains to come down the field, and looking to me for the RFP. I confirm with my HL that the chains are ready, point to my U to back off. Everyone is lined up and nearly ready to go. The A lineman have their elbows on their knees, wideouts and backs are in place. B lineman are down on their hands and knees, LB's in position, DB's lined up on receivers.

Once I confirm all my crew is ready, I blow the whistle and wind the clock. Apparently a B lineman was in the NZ. I don't know if it was before or after the RFP. At our meeting this Wed, I can ask my LJ for more detail on the timing if that would satisfy your concerns.

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

Or were you not serious about everyone's having been on their own side of the ball as the NZ was set? What I'm trying to figure out is why the ball was allowed to be snapped.

Because, as usual, we try to give B a chance to get back. Before the RFP, the B lineman were on their knees. I suppose at the RFP, they got into their stances, and in doing so, entered the NZ. The quickness of the snap following the RFP, the LJ's whistle and flag, occurred so close together to likely be indistinguishable.

As for the seriousness of everyone being on their own side of the ball, yes, I'm serious. When I'm standing behind A, I can't see whether the B lineman are in the NZ before or after the RFP. You wonder why the ball was allowed to be snapped? Perhaps because things were moving quickly, and the proximity of the RFP, B getting into a stance, the encroachment, the snap, and whistle to stop the play, made it difficult to stop the snap.

Regardless, there was no play. It was a snap, flag, spike, whistle, clock stoppage, all within seconds.

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

If team B was getting set before team A, why wasn't there some preventive officiating via warning in the case of the DT?

Perhaps, because as pointed out, it was in the middle of the field, and they couldn't hear? Perhaps because B encroached when getting into their stance? Perhaps because everything happened bang-bang?

Geez. I ask this situation not to question the mechanics of me or my crew. It was a frosh game. We had young guys on the wings (me and the U were the only experienced varsity officials). I asked this to clarify 1) extending the period, and 2) conferences after an apparent end of game. If I was interested in mechanics, I would have asked.

[Robert Goodman]

With the complete description, this becomes very clear. There was an encroachment foul during the dead ball interval. There was the appearance of a snap and scrimmage down, but that snap never officially occurred. The encroachment was penalized. However, team A was misled into believing that the ball had been live with a foul during that down that was penalized with the down to be repeated, and their coach therefore believed they had the right to an untimed down.

Still, there was something else that should have been done, unless the rules I'm referencing have been changed, which I doubt. (I have no hope of getting the article & section numbering right with so many intervening editions, but my bet is that their substance has not changed.) With team A preparing to spike the ball and seconds left in the game, team B's action delayed the game. It may not have been an intentional encroachment, but there would appear to be benefit to team B by discombobulating team A (making them come off the ball and await a new RFP) so as to let time run out, so I would rule delay of game by B, and with the penalty accepted for delay of game (superseding the encroachment penalty), time would resume on the succeeding snap rather than the RFP.

[MNBlue]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

With the complete description, this becomes very clear. There was an encroachment foul during the dead ball interval. There was the appearance of a snap and scrimmage down, but that snap never officially occurred. The encroachment was penalized. However, team A was misled into believing that the ball had been live with a foul during that down that was penalized with the down to be repeated, and their coach therefore believed they had the right to an untimed down.

Still, there was something else that should have been done, unless the rules I'm referencing have been changed, which I doubt. (I have no hope of getting the article & section numbering right with so many intervening editions, but my bet is that their substance has not changed.) With team A preparing to spike the ball and seconds left in the game, team B's action delayed the game. It may not have been an intentional encroachment, but there would appear to be benefit to team B by discombobulating team A (making them come off the ball and await a new RFP) so as to let time run out, so I would rule delay of game by B, and with the penalty accepted for delay of game (superseding the encroachment penalty), time would resume on the succeeding snap rather than the RFP.

It appears that you want to amend the rules to fit your position.

NFHS 3.6
When a team attempts to conserve or consume time illegally, the referee shall order the clock started or stop

I think it is a HUGE leap form the OP to your position of

delay of game by B

.

Isn't it possible that mistakes happened? B did encroached. 'A' coach made an assumption that was wrong.

I think it is much more likely that the officials got this correct and the 'A' coach was not happy because he didn't pay attention and was wrong.

[Suudy]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

However, team A was misled into believing that the ball had been live with a foul during that down that was penalized with the down to be repeated, and their coach therefore believed they had the right to an untimed down.

I don't think anyone was misled. That implies some sort of deception (intentional or not) on our part. Indeed, when I announced the foul, I gave the usual dead ball foul signal, and even said "Dead ball. Encroachment. 5 yards from the previous spot. Still first down."

I think the coach had in his mind the usual "Game cannot end on a defensive penalty" misconception. Now, I haven't been clear on this point, but I did discuss it with the A coach after the game. I told him that there was no foul on the last timed down of the period, so we do not extend the period with an untimed down. He argued it was a defensive penalty and I told him it didn't matter if it was offensive or defensive. Since this foul did not occur on the last _timed down_, there was no extension. He didn't agree, and he didn't persuade me otherwise. We left it at that.

Now, whether the coach thought he'd get an untimed down or not certainly wasn't our fault. We didn't tell him, or even hint to him that would be the case. As I pointed out, my wing told him "The clock will start at the ready" while A was at the sidelines. In fact, I think that hint "the clock will start..." would be significant.