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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Fri Sep 16, 2011, 09:05am
I Bleed Crimson
 
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Extending the Period/Game

I was WH at a frosh game last night, and we had the following.

1/10 from B's 40 with :08 left in the 4th. Clock starts on the ready. A trailing by a touchdown. A is out of timeouts and lines up to spike the ball. B lines up in the NZ, and the wing calls encroachment. The scoreboard had started the clock on the ready, and it was down to :06. After discussion, we told the scoreboard to put the clock back to :08. At this point, the A coach tells his players to come over to him. The wing on his side is telling him the clock will start on the ready.

So, we have 1/5 from B's 35, with :08 left in the 4th. The A coach has his players near him. We chop in the play and the clock starts. Time runs out. We call the game and start to walk off the field. The A coach is yelling that they get another down, since "the game cannot end on a defensive penalty."

So two questions.

1. I'm 99% certain that was the end of the game. We are NFHS, and the period is extended for any accepted foul _on the last timed down_. Now, the encroachment was not a timed down, so the period isn't extended. I would just like that last 1% certainty. We got this right?

2. How do you handle end game conferences? Say the ruling was incorrect. How does a coach call a conference after the game is over? How do you correct it?
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Old Fri Sep 16, 2011, 09:27am
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Lightbulb Canadian Ruling

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suudy View Post
I was WH at a frosh game last night, and we had the following.

1/10 from B's 40 with :08 left in the 4th. Clock starts on the ready. A trailing by a touchdown. A is out of timeouts and lines up to spike the ball. B lines up in the NZ, and the wing calls encroachment. The scoreboard had started the clock on the ready, and it was down to :06. After discussion, we told the scoreboard to put the clock back to :08. At this point, the A coach tells his players to come over to him. The wing on his side is telling him the clock will start on the ready.

So, we have 1/5 from B's 35, with :08 left in the 4th. The A coach has his players near him. We chop in the play and the clock starts. Time runs out. We call the game and start to walk off the field. The A coach is yelling that they get another down, since "the game cannot end on a defensive penalty."

So two questions.

1. I'm 99% certain that was the end of the game. We are NFHS, and the period is extended for any accepted foul _on the last timed down_. Now, the encroachment was not a timed down, so the period isn't extended. I would just like that last 1% certainty. We got this right?

2. How do you handle end game conferences? Say the ruling was incorrect. How does a coach call a conference after the game is over? How do you correct it?
CANADIAN RULING:

After a penalty application, start the clock on the snap.

In fact, inside the 3MW, here is when the clock starts on the snap, STOPICK, after a:

S core
T imeout granted
O ut of bounds (carried)
P enalty application
I ncomplete pass
C hange of possession
K ick from scrimmage
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Old Fri Sep 16, 2011, 09:42am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suudy View Post
I was WH at a frosh game last night, and we had the following.

1/10 from B's 40 with :08 left in the 4th. Clock starts on the ready. A trailing by a touchdown. A is out of timeouts and lines up to spike the ball. B lines up in the NZ, and the wing calls encroachment. The scoreboard had started the clock on the ready, and it was down to :06. After discussion, we told the scoreboard to put the clock back to :08. At this point, the A coach tells his players to come over to him. The wing on his side is telling him the clock will start on the ready.

So, we have 1/5 from B's 35, with :08 left in the 4th. The A coach has his players near him. We chop in the play and the clock starts. Time runs out. We call the game and start to walk off the field. The A coach is yelling that they get another down, since "the game cannot end on a defensive penalty."

So two questions.

1. I'm 99% certain that was the end of the game. We are NFHS, and the period is extended for any accepted foul _on the last timed down_. Now, the encroachment was not a timed down, so the period isn't extended. I would just like that last 1% certainty. We got this right?

2. How do you handle end game conferences? Say the ruling was incorrect. How does a coach call a conference after the game is over? How do you correct it?
1. Correct, it has to be live ball foul.

2. He had better get with the wing official. If we correct something we clear the field and play. It may take a minute but that's what has to be done. If fans are on the field use the game administrator and security to clear the field. Explain to both coaches what happened and what has to be done. The more they understand the easier it is.
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Old Fri Sep 16, 2011, 09:54am
I Bleed Crimson
 
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After posting, I had a thought.

We adjusted the clock back to :08. I'm now thinking it should have been :06. Though encroachment is a dead ball foul (NFHS), it doesn't affect the clock. The clock started on the ready.

And this got me thinking. One way B could prevent A from getting off a play is to keep lining up offsides. The clock would start on the ready. A would have to run at least :01 off the clock (to set their players). B could just keep giving up 5 yards until the clock ran out.

Of course we could invoke the unfair acts rule. But would rewarding a score be excessive?
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Old Fri Sep 16, 2011, 10:07am
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If you felt B did that on purpose, simply don't start the clock on the ready.

Regarding restarting after a conference, that even happened in the NFL once. Took 15 minutes, but the referees actually went back into the locker rooms and got the players out. All the offense (who was leading) had to do was snap it and down it, so it was all rather silly. Drew Pearson took the snap, in fact, as Roger Staubach was already in the shower.
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Old Fri Sep 16, 2011, 11:04am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suudy View Post

2. How do you handle end game conferences? Say the ruling was incorrect. How does a coach call a conference after the game is over? How do you correct it?
The coach may request a conference before the officials leave the field. If the coach is right and persuades you that you ended the game before it was over, you can bring the teams back on the field and play the end of the game. If he's wrong or fails to persuade you, then you just leave.

You should not have allowed a conference during penalty enforcement. Get the coaches off the field; if they don't listen to you or refuse, 15 yards USC on the head coach.
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Old Fri Sep 16, 2011, 01:21pm
I Bleed Crimson
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbyron View Post
The coach may request a conference before the officials leave the field. If the coach is right and persuades you that you ended the game before it was over, you can bring the teams back on the field and play the end of the game. If he's wrong or fails to persuade you, then you just leave.
That's pretty much what we did. He didn't persuade us, so we just left. I was thinking of players shaking hands, chain crew wandering off, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mbyron View Post
You should not have allowed a conference during penalty enforcement. Get the coaches off the field; if they don't listen to you or refuse, 15 yards USC on the head coach.
There were no coaches on the field. In fact, the coach called his players to the sidelines during the enforcement. He kept them there after the enforcement and after we started the clock. The wing warned him the clock would start at the ready. I guess he thought he'd let the clock run out while talking to his players thinking he'd get an untimed down.
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Old Fri Sep 16, 2011, 01:21pm
I Bleed Crimson
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbcrowder View Post
If you felt B did that on purpose, simply don't start the clock on the ready.
Ah! Good point. I like that approach.
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Old Fri Sep 16, 2011, 03:12pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suudy View Post
1/10 from B's 40 with :08 left in the 4th. Clock starts on the ready. A trailing by a touchdown. A is out of timeouts and lines up to spike the ball. B lines up in the NZ, and the wing calls encroachment. The scoreboard had started the clock on the ready, and it was down to :06. After discussion, we told the scoreboard to put the clock back to :08. At this point, the A coach tells his players to come over to him. The wing on his side is telling him the clock will start on the ready.

So, we have 1/5 from B's 35, with :08 left in the 4th. The A coach has his players near him. We chop in the play and the clock starts. Time runs out. We call the game and start to walk off the field. The A coach is yelling that they get another down, since "the game cannot end on a defensive penalty."

So two questions.

1. I'm 99% certain that was the end of the game. We are NFHS, and the period is extended for any accepted foul _on the last timed down_. Now, the encroachment was not a timed down, so the period isn't extended. I would just like that last 1% certainty. We got this right?
We need to clarify the part I bold faced above. Was the player of B already offside when the neutral zone was established, or did B encroach after the RFP? If B was offside and hadn't returned to onside, yet the ball was made ready for team A which was hurrying, is that a dead ball foul, or a foul that occurs while the ball is being put in play? Should the ball have been made RFP under those circumstances?
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Old Fri Sep 16, 2011, 03:16pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suudy View Post
And this got me thinking. One way B could prevent A from getting off a play is to keep lining up offsides. The clock would start on the ready. A would have to run at least :01 off the clock (to set their players). B could just keep giving up 5 yards until the clock ran out.

Of course we could invoke the unfair acts rule. But would awarding a score be excessive?
Excessive? I think you award a forfeit for delay of game!
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Old Fri Sep 16, 2011, 03:20pm
I Bleed Crimson
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Goodman View Post
We need to clarify the part I bold faced above. Was the player of B already offside when the neutral zone was established, or did B encroach after the RFP?
As I recall, they lined up offsides. It wasn't like they were rushing to try and get back on their side of the ball. The defensive tackle lined up in the NZ.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Goodman View Post
If B was offside and hadn't returned to onside, yet the ball was made ready for team A which was hurrying, is that a dead ball foul, or a foul that occurs while the ball is being put in play? Should the ball have been made RFP under those circumstances?
No hurry. We stopped the clock to move the chains. Everyone was on their own side of the ball, ready to go. My U was standing over the ball waiting for me, reminding the center to wait for the whistle. I pointed to the U, he backed off, and I chopped it in. Just as the ball was snapped, the wing threw the flag.

But perhaps it was nitpicky. It was obvious they were going to spike the ball (the QB was making the usual spiking motion as they came down field). Encroachment gained them no advantage. And the B coach didn't complain about the call.

Last edited by Suudy; Fri Sep 16, 2011 at 03:58pm.
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Old Sat Sep 17, 2011, 10:23am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suudy View Post
As I recall, they lined up offsides. It wasn't like they were rushing to try and get back on their side of the ball. The defensive tackle lined up in the NZ.


No hurry. We stopped the clock to move the chains. Everyone was on their own side of the ball, ready to go. My U was standing over the ball waiting for me, reminding the center to wait for the whistle. I pointed to the U, he backed off, and I chopped it in. Just as the ball was snapped, the wing threw the flag.

But perhaps it was nitpicky. It was obvious they were going to spike the ball (the QB was making the usual spiking motion as they came down field). Encroachment gained them no advantage. And the B coach didn't complain about the call.
Well...there is a popular mechanic to wait to flag encroachment at or near the snap for players lining up in the NZ, in this case, if your defensive tackle was lined up in the NZ when you chopped it in, the 2 seconds should have never ran off, he was offside, should have flagged and killed the clock right there (or reset to 08 from 06, although if you started the clock at 08 and he jumped in at 06 then no reset). The penalty with the clock running would keep it running on the ready, but if a penalty gives a team an advantage with the clock the R has the authority to start or not start the clock. B's foul gave them an additional advantage by keeping A from "clocking" the ball. Yes they could have clocked it on the ready, but the door is open for B to 'abuse' the clock.
As I read through the thread I was thinking I'd have done almost everything as you had (except adding the 2 seconds) but upon reading this post, I would have added the 2 seconds, "scolded" my wing for letting those 2 seconds run off the clock, and start on the snap.

And a coach can request a conference up until the quarter/game has officially ended. I know most of the time the officials just sprint off the field at the end of the game, but we do have a signal to officially end the game...

NFHS 3.3.5 At the end of each period the referee SHALL hold the ball in one hand overhead to indicate the period has officially ended, after delaying momentarily to ensure that: a. No foul has occured; b. No obvious timing error has occured; No request for a coach-referee conference has occured; d. No other irregularity has occured.

emphasis mine, its not a may but a shall, so I use it, I take the opportunity to make eye contact with each of my crew, each sideline and collect a football and give the sign and then I sprint off the field. I would hate to sprint off the field and have to sprint back because my BJ who was 100 yards from the lockerroom got caught up in a coach referee conference, or had flagged an IP on the last play and we all missed it. We enter as a crew and leave as a crew.
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Old Sat Sep 17, 2011, 07:13pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suudy View Post
As I recall, they lined up offsides. It wasn't like they were rushing to try and get back on their side of the ball. The defensive tackle lined up in the NZ.

No hurry. We stopped the clock to move the chains. Everyone was on their own side of the ball, ready to go. My U was standing over the ball waiting for me, reminding the center to wait for the whistle. I pointed to the U, he backed off, and I chopped it in. Just as the ball was snapped, the wing threw the flag.
So everyone was on their own side of the ball, the neutral zone began, and then one of the B players entered it to line up? Why would that not be whistled dead.

Or were you not serious about everyone's having been on their own side of the ball as the NZ was set? What I'm trying to figure out is why the ball was allowed to be snapped.

If team B was getting set before team A, why wasn't there some preventive officiating via warning in the case of the DT?
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Old Sat Sep 17, 2011, 07:24pm
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Robert, there is no way a wing can "preventatively officiate" a DT lining up in the NZ. He's too far away to hear us if we tried. The U isn't going to really know unless he's way off into the NZ.

A DE or LB creeping up might can hear us if he's paying some attention and knows his uniform number. (don't laugh, lots of kids seem to have no idea what their number is, particularly early in the season or if they are MS or JV's)
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Old Sat Sep 17, 2011, 07:42pm
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Under NCAA rules, we don't have a dead ball foul for simple offsides, so we'll just assume it was offsides with contact, causing a dead ball foul and stopped clock at 6 like the OP said.

First, no time is put on the clock. 2 seconds is reasonable in that situation. We mark off 5 yards, then I tell both teams that the clock will start on the ready. If A does not get the play off, that's on them. As soon as a RFP is blown, we have a new play and its THAT play that is determinative as to whether we extend the period.

Second, defensive foul has nothing to do with whether the period ends. Its a down free from live ball fouls. The down, by definition, starts at the ready for play.
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