substitution vs participation

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by hawkishowl20

This specific situation had loads of “extra time” to count. The official also proved by many actions he knew the count before the snap. Grabbing the flag and holding it until the snap then throwing it the instant the snap occurred is a good indication of that knowledge.

I wish you'd stated it that way to start with.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

Youth football scrapes the bottom of the barrel for officials for several reasons, all related to money. One is that the scholastic programs outbid them money-wise for personnel. Another is that conditions are poor, with small crews, poorly marked fields, and uncertain times. By the latter I mean the start of games may be delayed because of a need to wait for the field to become available, but on the other hand forfeits are not uncommon. You may wind up with a game ending in near darkness, have to deal with people who wander thru the field because they don't realize a game is under way, be asked to enforce many local variant rules, all sorts of conditions that wouldn't come up often in scholastic ball.


Robert

Fortunately for me, there is a huge youth league here that contacts with the association I belong to. The league is well managed, well funded and for the most part, is kept in control. We have the occasional issue, especially with teams from certain cities that are poorly managed but we have a great relationship with the league. In turn, the league provides a great place for newer officials to build and refine their officiating skills. Due to the quality of the league, there are many veteran officials that don't mind working there so we are able to facilitate a good learning experience and knowledge transfer. To top it off, the quality of play is actually pretty good with many of the teams from the oldest age group being better than quite a few high school freshman teams.

[hawkishowl20]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Who put 12 on the field, anyway? Perhaps someone else ought to be looking into the "incompetence" mirror.

The only mistake the official made was engaging you for so long. I wouldn't have even come to the sidelines to discuss this with you.

How many times does this need to be said? My D-coordinator realized the substitution error and was yelling onto the field before the snap. Which probably helped official count faster. He then apologized for the substitution error immediately after the play.

1)So, he made a substitution
2)the player new to football got mixed up
3)He discovered and attempted to fix the error
4)And apologized for it

Why are you obsessed with this? It doesn’t offset failure to officiate. That’s the business of officiating. If games could be played without a single rule infraction or mistake there would be no officials. By your logic my team commits one penalty in a game, my player gets ejected for jumping offside and I can’t object because I didn’t coach him well enough to not jump offside? It is hard to withstand your absurdity. I hope you realize you are doing it.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by hawkishowl20

How many times does this need to be said? My D-coordinator realized the substitution error and was yelling onto the field before the snap. Which probably helped official count faster. He then apologized for the substitution error immediately after the play.

1)So, he made a substitution
2)the player new to football got mixed up
3)He discovered and attempted to fix the error
4)And apologized for it

Why are you obsessed with this? It doesn’t offset failure to officiate. That’s the business of officiating. If games could be played without a single rule infraction or mistake there would be no officials. By your logic my team commits one penalty in a game, my player gets ejected for jumping offside and I can’t object because I didn’t coach him well enough to not jump offside? It is hard to withstand your absurdity. I hope you realize you are doing it.

Obsessed? You are going on and on and on about one flag. Who freaking cares?

At the end of the day, it's not our fault if the snap happens with 12. We count players, yes. If we don't, though, it's not our fault one of the teams can't count to 12. There's a reason playing with 12 has its very own little rule attached to it.

It is impossible to withstand your idiocy. This is why I stick with wearing the white hat on Friday nights and leave Saturday mornings to the dad-wanna-be coaches and the poor saps that feel they need the money so badly they need to listen to you in order to get it. (And BTW, it's likely why you don't get decent officials who would stop this before the snap. I did the whole Saturday youth thing for a while and after throwing at least 5-6 USC flags on coaches per week for running onto the field to argue calls I gave it up. I didn't even make it through one season. And I have a crew on the WIAA playoff list.)

It's been a few days since the OP & this "coach/official" still doesnt get it... unbelievable!

Let's just say the official in question saw the infraction & decided to "get you" on a 15 instead of a
5.
Well, that would be wrong but inexperience is what all participants & spectators should expect at that level.
Just like we expect coaches (who allow their team to come out of a TO with 12 playeys on the field) to be inexperienced.
Do you think the most qualified officials are lining up for those assignments or working NCAA games on Saturday?!?!
I know I see my share of horrible play calling at that level, but I don't comment on it.

Originally Posted by hawkishowl20

He made a mistake. I didn’t yell at him.

Maybe it was how you said it as opposed to the volume of what you said. Maybe that was not the first time you had a negative interaction with him during the game...

I brought up the correct rule.

Really?

Instead of apologizing or giving the only possible (but actually impossible due to his actions) justification of not having the count in time, he went ballistic.

Who wouldn't get pissed by a coach quoting incorrect rules to them. Justify to YOU why I didn't count before the snap?? Please. You should be glad that I didn't work your game. I'd have run your a$$ for citing rules like the following to me.

Originally Posted by hawkishowl20

Ok, now I notice this and say “that’s not a fifteen yard penalty.” The official says “it’s illegal participation that’s a fifteen yard penalty.” I now realize he’s calling the wrong penalty and say “that’s when someone comes off the bench after the snap.

"WRONG, he was already on the field prior to the snap... you coach & I'll officiate".

This is a dead ball, five yard substitution penalty!” He says “it wasn’t dead ball.” I’m now picking up on this guy being an idiot.

He's thinking the exact same thing about you.

“If you don’t blow dead a dead ball penalty it’s still a dead ball penalty.”

Official should realize at this point that any more discussion with you is pointless because it was a LIVE BALL PENALTY!

Originally Posted by hawkishowl20

I didn’t do anything out of line by simply stating rules (correctly)

Sorta like this one

Originally Posted by hawkishowl20

The team couldn’t have committed the participation if the ref did his job, but he didn’t so it’s a 10 yard live ball substitution or something.

It should've read:

Originally Posted by hawkishowl20

The team couldn’t have committed the participation if the coach did his job, but he didn’t so it’s a 15 yard live ball penalty.

Questionable or missed calls aren't fatal, too much focus on officiating is. At the youth level misapplication of rules &/or lack of knowledge by the officials should be used to teach kids how to handle adversity & also that life isn't fair... deal with it! Suck on lemons or turn them into lemonade.
Embrace those opportunities to educate our youth, teach them life-lessons through sports.
Respect our fraternity!

[OverAndBack]

Originally Posted by hawkishowl20

How many times does this need to be said? My D-coordinator realized the substitution error and was yelling onto the field before the snap. Which probably helped official count faster. He then apologized for the substitution error immediately after the play.

1)So, he made a substitution
2)the player new to football got mixed up
3)He discovered and attempted to fix the error
4)And apologized for it

Why are you obsessed with this? It doesn’t offset failure to officiate. That’s the business of officiating. If games could be played without a single rule infraction or mistake there would be no officials. By your logic my team commits one penalty in a game, my player gets ejected for jumping offside and I can’t object because I didn’t coach him well enough to not jump offside? It is hard to withstand your absurdity. I hope you realize you are doing it.

You must have a great staff if you can pay this close attention to an official before the snap. You're not doing anything else? And you're still harping on it? Man.

[daggo66]

Ok, just one more time. Looking at this from a coach's perspective (I coach girls 14U AAU), you made a classic mistake. You clearly stated that you did not want to use a time out. The mistake you made was letting an official decide your fate. Never would I sit back and hope that an official makes the call that I want them to when I have all the control in the situation. You gave him the control to decide your fate. Right, wrong, or indifferent, it doesn't matter. You gave the chance to decide your fate to the official and you deserve what you got.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by daggo66

Ok, just one more time. Looking at this from a coach's perspective (I coach girls 14U AAU), you made a classic mistake. You clearly stated that you did not want to use a time out. The mistake you made was letting an official decide your fate. Never would I sit back and hope that an official makes the call that I want them to when I have all the control in the situation. You gave him the control to decide your fate. Right, wrong, or indifferent, it doesn't matter. You gave the chance to decide your fate to the official and you deserve what you got.

Daggo, that doesn't make sense. If you're about to have a delay penalty and you'd rather take it than the timeout, you still have a right to complain about it being assessed as a 15 yard penalty. The mistake he made was not having a clue how to deal with an official. (And being wrong about the rule -- though I still maintain the correctness of the AR is a little suspect).
________
Medical Marijuana -Oregon Dispenceries

[PA-28-181]

Coach,
I have read all your posts here & it looks like you story is changing to meet your request. You need to remember the officials are not there to screw you.

Also from reading this long thread it looks like you are also quoting old rule & case books. I would suggest next year when you are requested to attend a rules meeting you go. Your interpretation of the rule is wrong, period.

Regardless to how you feel, you had 12 players on the field. For whatever reason the count was not done until right before the snap, I know if I count 12 I do a recount. After the snap IT IS A LIVE BALL FOUL.

This whole thread reinforces my thought that if coaches put as much effort into knowing the rules, as they do into tell the officials they are wrong you might get what we are doing every Friday night.

Also Daggo66 wrote this "Rule 3.7.1 Situation B. It's on page 27. The case book explains the rule with real life situations. Yours is right there in black and white. I believe this is the part where you either say Mea Culpa or are never heard from again." read that rule.

Originally Posted by hawkishowl20

Youngump asks a great question and the answer is simple you can stop play after it starts and call the dead ball foul. It is not only suggested in the substitution rule it also is the safest thing to do. That’s why participation carries a higher penalty: if you run on after play begins it may be difficult to catch and is dangerous. That’s why substitution is a 5 yard penalty because it occurs outside of play and causes no danger.


*3.7 COMMENT, Page 26: a. If a replaced player or substitute attempts to leave the field, but does not get off prior to the snap, the foul is considered as having occurred simultaneously with the snap and the illegal substitution penalty is enforced from the previous spot. (3-7-4, 10-4-2a)

[daggo66]

Originally Posted by youngump

Daggo, that doesn't make sense. If you're about to have a delay penalty and you'd rather take it than the timeout, you still have a right to complain about it being assessed as a 15 yard penalty. The mistake he made was not having a clue how to deal with an official. (And being wrong about the rule -- though I still maintain the correctness of the AR is a little suspect).

It makes all the sense in the world. The coach made an error. His team did not properly substitute. He could have easily corrected it with a time out. He chose to let the official make a judgement decision as to which penalty he was going to call. It is unimportant if you agree or disagree with what the official did. As a coach you should never ever let an official make a decision that can affect you when you have the opportunity to correct it.

[JRutledge]

I am still trying to figure out how the official is unethical to enforce a rule?

Peace

[OverAndBack]

Originally Posted by PA-28-181

You need to remember the officials are not there to screw you.

That's a problem that, unfortunately, is tough for us as officials to overcome. There's too much animosity between coaches and officials, in part (but not totally) because of a misunderstanding about what we're trying to do and our motivations.

I've not coached, so I'm not going to try to read a coach's mind or detect his motivations for things, yet, too often, coaches think they know what we're thinking or what our objectives and reasons for doing things are.

Not all take it to the extreme of "they're out to screw us," but I don't believe that as many coaches as we'd like look at us as partners in the educational process (which I believe we all are).

Trust me - we're not in it for the money or the glory and ain't 1% of us going to the NFL, so it's not for that, either.

I don't know what the solution is. Just something that has always struck me out the relationship between coaches and officials (and not just in football).

[youngump]

Originally Posted by daggo66

It makes all the sense in the world. The coach made an error. His team did not properly substitute. He could have easily corrected it with a time out. He chose to let the official make a judgement decision as to which penalty he was going to call.

Nothing there doesn't work in my delay of game scenario. Again, the problem is that he doesn't seem to understand the participation/substitution rule, not calling the timeout wasn't the mistake. If he had known what was going on he could have accomplished the same thing as not taking a timeout, by saying to the official, I've got twelve on the field.
________
Cheap Vape

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by youngump

Nothing there doesn't work in my delay of game scenario. Again, the problem is that he doesn't seem to understand the participation/substitution rule, not calling the timeout wasn't the mistake. If he had known what was going on he could have accomplished the same thing as not taking a timeout, by saying to the official, I've got twelve on the field.

While the way the Federation wants us to call Illegal Substitution / Illegal Participation is unique, that is how they want it called and they are very clear about it in their Casebook ruling. That's all there is to it. It is not our fault if coaches do not understand the rules.

[Jimmie24]

If the coach tells you he has twelve, you still have to count. If during the count the snap happens, then it is IP. Rules are rules, we are there to enforce them. Not change them as this play has changed.