Participation

Jaysef · #1 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 13, 2005, 08:56am

Looking for input...MHSAA Rulebook (9-6)says 12 players on the field at the snap is live ball foul from previous spot-15yd-penalty...In our WMOA meeting last night, I brought this up, and was told that we should blow it dead at the snap, and flag it as illegal substitution...is this the way the call is being made statewide?

Ump

jrfath · #2 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 13, 2005, 09:12am

That is how I have always been taught to call this infraction (VA and NC). When the snap is imminent, flag the illegal substution. This makes the penalty much less harsh on the offending team.

James Neil · #3 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 13, 2005, 09:24am

Thats also how we're told to do it in So. Oregon

michaelpr · #4 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 13, 2005, 09:26am

well illegal substitution is safer also. letting 12 guys go against 11 is not safe. and fed rules are in place for player safety.

Jaysef · #5 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 13, 2005, 09:34am

Good input, thanks guys

Theisey · #6 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 13, 2005, 09:34am

(sarcasm on) So if team-B is playing with only 10 players, is that mean it's now unsafe for them since team-A has 11?
(sarcasm off).

Safety has nothing to do with preventing the play from starting and calling it Illegal Sub.

michaelpr · #7 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 13, 2005, 09:38am

Quote:

Originally posted by Theisey
(sarcasm on) So if team-B is playing with only 10 players, is that mean it's now unsafe for them since team-A has 11?
(sarcasm off).

Safety has nothing to do with preventing the play from starting and calling it Illegal Sub.

That is what I understand the intent of the rule is. If less than 11 are fielded they choose to risk their own safety.

grantsrc · #8 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 13, 2005, 09:53am

I believe there is a situation in the casebook this year that addresses 12 on the field for either team. Blow it dead, even if the player is heading to the sidelines.

I'm not a fan of blowing it dead for B. I say nail them with 15, instead of 5, but I can understad the safety thing.

Jaysef · #9 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 13, 2005, 01:11pm

Out of curiosity, in what situation(s) do we actually follow the NFHS 9.6 (c) rule?

michaelpr · #10 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 13, 2005, 01:14pm

mostly when the intent is to decieve to opponent.

Snake~eyes · #11 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 13, 2005, 02:02pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Jaysef
Out of curiosity, in what situation(s) do we actually follow the NFHS 9.6 (c) rule?

When you count 12 after the snap.

ref18 · #12 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 13, 2005, 03:28pm

Legal with 12 players on the field at the snap

If they have 13, we flag it at the snap, but let the play continue.

The penalty would be 10 yards PLS, repeat the down.

Just to start up a bit of argument it looks like you guys are intentionally setting aside a rule. If the book says 12 on the field at the snap is a 15 yard penalty, then call it that.

The Roamin' Umpire · #13 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 13, 2005, 03:53pm

Quote:

Originally posted by ref18
Just to start up a bit of argument it looks like you guys are intentionally setting aside a rule. If the book says 12 on the field at the snap is a 15 yard penalty, then call it that.

Not quite that simple. The book has two different fouls for too many men. They are called under different conditions.

Illegal substitution is a 5-yard penalty. It's usually a dead-ball foul that occurs when a substitute enters the field, and no one gets off after a few seconds. (It can also be a live-ball foul, if the extra man is running off the field, but hasn't made it yet, at the snap.)

Illegal participation is a 15-yard penalty. It occurs (among other situations) when the offense has too many players in its formation at the snap, or when the extra player participates in the play (which, for the defense, doesn't take much).

Most officials down this way are instructed to try and catch the team with the extra man before the snap, enforcing the dead-ball 5-yard penalty for IS. If we only notice after the snap, it becomes a live-ball 15-yard penalty for IP. The theory is to try to keep the impact of the foul on the game as small as possible.

Forksref · #14 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 13, 2005, 06:41pm

I had 12 on the field last week and just prior to the snap I flagged them for IS.

I think there is an element of safety involved although the intent is fairness by abiding by the 11-man rule.

Yesterday I had 10 on a kickoff return team and didn't flag it. This is the way I handle those 2 situations.

Bob M. · #15 (**permalink**) Wed Sep 14, 2005, 08:40am

Quote:

Originally posted by Jaysef
Out of curiosity, in what situation(s) do we actually follow the NFHS 9.6 (c) rule?

REPLY: Situation 1 -- Team is disorganized, players running in and out, officials unable to effectively count because they can't adequately determine who's in and who's out. Often, this is a late flag after the play has ended and the officials can finally get the count correct.

Situation 2 -- Substitute A2 (or more likely, B2) enters the field just prior to the snap. Snap occurs a second or two later before replaced player is notified. All 12 players participate in the play.