substitution vs participation

[youngump]

Originally Posted by Jimmie24

If the coach tells you he has twelve, you still have to count. If during the count the snap happens, then it is IP. Rules are rules, we are there to enforce them. Not change them as this play has changed.

So it's no longer dangerous to have 12 guys on the field? If somebody got hurt in that situation, you'll have an awful hard time sleeping that night.

Look at this another way, say they have no timeouts left. And they realize a few seconds before the snap that they have too many and they aren't going to be able to get the guys off. In your mind is there anyway for there to be a dead ball foul if you don't count fast?
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Ocean View Condo Pattaya

[Jimmie24]

How is the fact that there are 12 guys on the field my problem? My job is to enforce the rules as they are written. The rule is pretty clear here. If I don't get to 12 before the snap, I have participation. If I can get the count right before the snap, I am killing the play. Like has been stated, if I count 12, I am going to recount. In this situation, there are usually two officials counting the defense. Are you saying the other guy was sticking it to this team too?

Your statement about me sleeping at night? No, I will sleep well. I will enforce the rules as they are written. Agree with them or disagree with them. They will be enforced.

[PA-28-181]

Coach,
This is where you went wrong. Because you thought that you were going to get a 5 yard penalty everything was OK. But because you misunderstood the right rule it cost you 10 more yards.

Originally Posted by hawkishowl20

I didn't want a time out and I didn't mind the penalty. The missaplication or ignoring of rules generaly diminishes "fun" and "fair play." Those things I teach my team.

[Sonofanump]

What I’ll remember most from this thread:

“howler monkey”

[daggo66]

Originally Posted by youngump

So it's no longer dangerous to have 12 guys on the field? If somebody got hurt in that situation, you'll have an awful hard time sleeping that night.

Look at this another way, say they have no timeouts left. And they realize a few seconds before the snap that they have too many and they aren't going to be able to get the guys off. In your mind is there anyway for there to be a dead ball foul if you don't count fast?

There is no basis for us to stop the play in order to complete the count. Remember there are two teams on the field. Why should we hold back the offense from making a play just because the defense "may" have substituted incorrectly. Remember you can only call what you see. If you don't see 12 men you can't call it until you do.

[PSU213]

Grabbing the flag and holding it until the snap then throwing it the instant the snap occurred is a good indication of that knowledge.

You really need to give this argument up. You cannot jump to the conclusion that he knew the count based on this. It is not logical to assume that he had his hand on his flag to signal an IS foul (plus you probably know what happens when you assume).

Instead of apologizing or giving the only possible (but actually impossible due to his actions) justification of not having the count in time, he went ballistic.

A very small concession to you...if the official truly went ballistic (which may or may not be true), he was not justified and he was wrong.

This guy was probably hired by our opposition not my league which could as suggested be the explanation for his inexperience and low quality. I don’t know how this particular opponent staffs it’s games.

Because I am sure you staff your games with NFL officials on their off days. Also, you are tired of people focusing on you, yet you continue to bash this official. He made a call different that you expected, and you just go off and name call and make unfounded, dangerous accusations. Since in your mind, if an official makes one even so-so call he is inexperienced and low quality. Using this logic, Ed Hochuli is low quality.

I didn’t do anything out of line by simply stating rules (correctly)

Need I remind you of the entire 'three seconds' debate?

The official made a mistake maliciously or in incompetence about enforcing a rule.

To quote Ronald Reagan: "There you go again" with making unbased accusations.

The rules are somewhat flawed in that they allow unethical abuse and create honest confusion among some, but otherwise fine.

You have had a bunch of officials on here tell you that the call was correct. Are they all unethical too?

The ethical question still remains because this does get botched up from time to time.

You are the only one who has come up with the silly ethical question. You want to talk about ethics? OK, is it ethical for a coach to come on here and smear an official who probably does not even know anything about the savage attack you have waged on him? Is it ethical to blame an official when the original mistake that was made was your own? Is it ethical to continue to argue with a group of officials who started this discussion by trying to help you out and explain the rules to you?

[PSU213]

Originally Posted by youngump

So it's no longer dangerous to have 12 guys on the field? If somebody got hurt in that situation, you'll have an awful hard time sleeping that night.

I think you are confusing 2 things here...they are: (1) blatanly ignoring the count before the play (in which case, yes, it is partially the official's fault for letting 12 be out there for the play) and (2) not finishing your count for whatever reason (in which case, it is a very sad thing if a player get hurts, but certainly is not the fault of the official). Going back to the OP, it still seems to be a failure to finish the count in time.

Look at this another way, say they have no timeouts left. And they realize a few seconds before the snap that they have too many and they aren't going to be able to get the guys off. In your mind is there anyway for there to be a dead ball foul if you don't count fast?

I'm really not sure what this has to do with the first part of your post, but if you are only part of they way through the count when the snap occurs, it would be IP for 12 on the field.

[RMR]

Originally Posted by hawkishowl20

How could the rule possibly be applied correctly under the circumstances? The official knowingly disregarded a dead ball foul in order to call a live ball foul. That is either malicious or ignorant, both being incorrect.

How exactly do you know he was aware that there were 12 on the field prior to the ball becoming live?

[PSU213]

Originally Posted by RMR

How exactly do you know he was aware that there were 12 on the field prior to the ball becoming live?

Oh no, don't get him started. Truth is, that can't be proved.

[RMR]

Originally Posted by hawkishowl20

I know those interpretations and that practice the only thing your offering is the case book. What book is it what page is that on?

Let me get this straight. You tell us you are an official, but you don't know what the case book is?

[OverAndBack]

Originally Posted by Jimmie24

Like has been stated, if I count 12, I am going to recount.

If I count 12, I'm counting again. Twice.

If I count 10, I'm counting again. Once. And checking with my partner who's also counting.

I hope I have time to do all this, but my first priority is to get it right, not to get it inside a coach's timeframe. If he counts faster than me, bully for him. But I have a lot of stuff I have to do between snaps.

[RMR]

Originally Posted by hawkishowl20

The participation penalty assumes that the officials are competent and able to count players on the field in under a minute. It takes less than a second to determine any offense (with 5 interior lineman) has 11. That leaves a lot of time for the defense. Under no circumstances should this situation occur. Participation can only be called if the 12th defensive player runs on within 3 seconds of the snap to after the snap. Otherwise it’s on the official to call a substitution penalty. I’m sorry if you feel guilty about this but it’s just the way it is. Take the ignorant blinders off.

So you're an official and you don't realize that different people are responsible for counting offense and defense?

This just gets better and better.

[hawkishowl20]

Originally Posted by RMR

Let me get this straight. You tell us you are an official, but you don't know what the case book is?

Yes, that is why I have quoted the case book numerous times including the OP.

[hawkishowl20]

Originally Posted by RMR

So you're an official and you don't realize that different people are responsible for counting offense and defense?

This just gets better and better.

No, but I didn't realize so many officials are so cavalier about counting on time. I was simply saying it takes less than 1 second to count offense in formation. Let me save you a post because I know you will say “You’re an official and you don’t know you count the offense before they get in formation.” I am curious what would cause you to not count in time specifically?

[hawkishowl20]

Originally Posted by PSU213

Oh no, don't get him started. Truth is, that can't be proved.

Oooooook. It can't be proved. He just made himself look extreemly guilty by throwing a flag when he should have whistled.