substitution vs participation

[hawkishowl20]

Who's right? Who's wrong?

I’m looking for opinions on this ‘situation’ I ran into Saturday. Maybe someone has come across this before or knows the rules.

My league uses WIAA rules which are basically NFHS rules. So, during a timeout my defensive coordinator substituted a cornerback for a cornerback. He said something like “you’re in” and “you’re out.” The kid that was in is new and not very sharp so he didn’t understand this and stayed on the field. Being new he also didn’t pick up on someone being in his position promptly. The timeout ends, the other team breaks the huddle, goes up to the line, we realize we have to many men, the official sees we have 12 men, decides to not stop play, the play is run (veer dive), the official throws a flag on the snap…

The official signals illegal participation and walks of the penalty 15 yards from the line of scrimmage.

Ok, now I notice this and say “that’s not a fifteen yard penalty.” The official says “it’s illegal participation that’s a fifteen yard penalty.” I now realize he’s calling the wrong penalty and say “that’s when someone comes off the bench after the snap. This is a dead ball, five yard substitution penalty!” He says “it wasn’t dead ball.” I’m now picking up on this guy being an idiot. “If you don’t blow dead a dead ball penalty it’s still a dead ball penalty.” As this is going on the other team is running a play and he has his back to them. A players dad on my sideline says “why don’t you watch the play that’s how someone gets hurt.” The official says “you (the dad) shut up I‘m not talking to you, you (me) I’ll stop the game to talk to you (me).” He starts walking toward my sideline. I say “that’s the wrong penalty, 15 yard penalties are for unsafe plays, personal fouls, unsportsmanlike, that’s the way the rules are structured.” He says “check your rule book before you open your mouth.” Now, I’m a very under control person which is good because the way he said this walking toward me and pointing is the way you pick a fight. I say “I’m fine, I don’t care, you have final say on making the wrong call, you’re the official, but I’m notifying you that your wrong so you never do it again.” That kept him from escalating it farther and he said something like “I’m right bla bla.” and the game continued.

Now, I checked my rulebook, the excepts are in the next post. Take a look if you need to and let me know what you think of my conduct the official and the ruling.

If anyone has a new good rulebook I’d be interested in that.

[hawkishowl20]

*3.7 COMMENT, Page 26: a. If a replaced player or substitute attempts to leave the field, but does not get off prior to the snap, the foul is considered as having occurred simultaneously with the snap and the illegal substitution penalty is enforced from the previous spot. (3-7-4, 10-4-2a)


*3.7.3 SITUATION A: B11 mistakenly believes he is his team's 12th player and leaves the field before the snap (a) on his opponent's sideline, or (b) on his sideline and enters his team box. B11 then discovers his error and returns to field on his team's side of the neutral zone before the snap. RULING: REPLACE WITH: Illegal in (a) which is a dead ball foul for illegal substitution (3-7-2). In (b) the action is legal, but if done intentionally to gain an advantage, it would be an unsportsmanlike foul. If B11 returns to the field after the snap it is a live ball foul for illegal participation in (a) and (b). (9-5-1f; 9-6-4a)

*9.6 COMMENT, Page 71: b: If a substitute enters the field during the down, but does not make any contact with an opponent or touch the ball and does not influence the play it is illegal participation and a live-ball foul enforced from the basic spot. (9-6-4a) NOTE: Based on the rules change, officials are strongly encouraged to make certain that the substitute’s entry into the field had some impact on the play and was not incidental to viewing the game or simply being in the bench area.



50. If a replaced player is unable to leave the field prior to the snap, it is an illegal substitution foul if he does not participate

nor affect the play

Illegal Participation

61. If a substitute or replace player influences the play it is illegal participation.

62. Illegal participation can be a non-player foul.

•Substitution and participation are more clearly defined

•Participation now has its own definition: “Any act or action by a player

or nonplayer that has influence on play.” (2-29)

•A replaced player or substitute who enters the field during a down,

but does not participate is guilty of illegal substitution. Penalty

enforced from the succeeding spot. (Fund 4)

•Illegal participation is a 15-yard spot foul.

Case Book: *3-7 COMMENT; *3.7.3 A & B; *9.6 COMMENT; *9.6.1D; *9.6.4C

Illegal substitution is a dead ball five yard foul and will be called if there are more than 11 defensive players on the field and the "extra players" (substitutes) are not making a bona fide attempt to get off the field.

Illegal Participation is a live ball 15 yard foul and occurs once the ball is snapped with more than 11 players on a side. The reason officials try to enforce the illegal substitution is because it is a 5 yard foul rather than the 15 yard foul.

Illegal substitution: The defense do not have "until the ball is snapped" to complete their substitution, a substitute must replace a player immediately. Immediately has been defined as "within 3 seconds". Hence the substitute must replace the player within 3 seconds of going to the defensive huddle or to the vicinity of the replaced player.

[wisref2]

As a Wisconsin official, I'll tell you the the call was correct - illegal participation (Wisc. uses NFHS rules). According to your post, the replaced player stayed on the field during the play. So, you had 12 on the field during the play - that is illegal participation, a 15 yard live-ball foul.

As to your behavior, I can only judge by your post because I wasn't there. You stated that since he got the call wrong, he was an idiot. However, you were the one who got the call wrong.

So who is the idiot.

The rule in question is 9-6-3. No replaced player.....shall hinder an opponent, touch the ball, influence the play or otherwise participate. Illegal participation.

Since your player stayed on the field, he both influenced the play and participated. Before you question the influencing part, he influenced because he was on the field during the play and therefor the offense had to account for him in their blocking decisions.

[daggo66]

It's my opion that if illegal participation is called then the crew screwed up. We should be counting during each and every dead ball and calling illegal substitution when we count 12. That being said sometimes it happens. Sometimes at the youth level the rugrats are tough to count. They are rarely still or in the correct place, still it's part of our job to count them correctly. The official in question should never turn his back to discuss anything with a coach while play is continuing. As a coach, you should have requested a time out to discuss the ruling in a calm manner with the crew chief. If your point was upheld you would not be charged for the timeout. Just as this official was not paying attention to the game when his back was turned to you, you were not paying attention to your team while they were running a play. When you are yelling across the field at an official you are doing your team a disservice.

[Mike L]

Technically regarding the call, you were wrong and the official was right but it definitely could have been handled better by all parties involved.

[ajmc]

Sorry coach, you were wrong on a number of levels and are responsible for creating an unnecessary level of tension that could have (maybe even should have) caused your disqualification.

First, your understanding of the rules you are referencing is totally incorrect. Yes, illegal substitution is a 5 yard dead ball foul, and Illegal participation is a live ball 15 yard foul. Forgive me, but because you and your defensive coordinator are not on the same page is not the officials problem.

Officials should, and usually do, count both teams before the snap specifically to avoid situations like this one. As suggested, however, for various reasons the counts are not sometimes completed in time and the play goes off. Again, the correct number of players on the field is not the officials responsibility, it's yours. When 12, or more, players participate in the play, the correct call is illegal participation, a live ball 15 yard penalty.

Forgive me again, as I presume your version of the story might be a little sugar coated, but that's reality based on a lot of "conversations" with coaches regarding their misunderstanding of rules. Something tells me, when you decided the official enforced the "wrong penalty" your tone was less of questioning and perhaps a little accusitory, which is an absolutely losing strategy to employ. It might be your skill at, "now picking up on this guy being an idiot", but it likely affected your attitude, in the wrong direction and helped this discussion go down hill. Mistake number 2.

Your concern for the game progressing while the Referee was talking to you, was mistake number 3. Your commenting on that was a disrespectful suggestion that he was not fulfilling his primary responsibility of managing the game, was simply, unnecessary and added nothing positive to your discussion. Quoting rules, or what you think are the rules, suggesting ignorance on the part of the Referee is a dangerous tactic if you're seeking cooperation.

You'll get a lot better reaction if you keep things in the form of a question and wait for clarification, rather than just accusing him of being uninformed.

As for the parent, hopefully he paid to get in and therefore earned the privlege of saying (pretty much) whatever he wants, but he should not expect that anything he says matters or deserves any kind of response. He is entitled to his opinion, but that opinion is simply not relevant.

Your attempt to get in the last word, with, "I don’t care, you have final say on making the wrong call, you’re the official, but I’m notifying you that your wrong so you never do it again", was clearly mistake number 4 and 5.

Mistake number 4, because you were dead wrong about the rule itself, and mistake number 5 because your comment could have caused you to spend the rest of the game in the parking lot. The "last word" is always up for grabs, but it can often be very expensive.

Allow me to suggest you familiarize yourself with another NF rule, NF:3.5.11 it describes the civil manner in which a coach may question any rule application in a calm, relaxed manner. Even fully understanding that rule, I would suggest a tone of questioning, rather than declaring, will produce much more favorable results.

Coaching is an often difficult, frustrating experience and it requires your full focus. Officiating is also a job that requires specialized training, dedication and committment. Rarely do we find individuals who are capable of being competent in both roles, because the roles pull in opposite directions.

[JugglingReferee]

Well said ajmc. I hope the OP coach learns something here. (Coach: feel free to reply to me without my fearing you do so for the last word. )

[Forksref]

If we count 12, then if they are not making any attempt to have one leave, we will throw the flag just prior to the snap. I tell the coach, we just saved you 10 yards. (5 yd IS vs. 15 yd IP). I consider it doing a favor for the team.

If we fail to do that for whatever reason, it will be a 15 yarder.

In any case, it is really the fault of the coach for not being organized enough to have the right number of kids out there. This seems to happen repeatly with some teams and not at all with others.

[Jim D]

Originally Posted by Forksref

If we count 12, then if they are not making any attempt to have one leave, we will throw the flag just prior to the snap. I tell the coach, we just saved you 10 yards. (5 yd IS vs. 15 yd IP). I consider it doing a favor for the team.

If we fail to do that for whatever reason, it will be a 15 yarder.

In any case, it is really the fault of the coach for not being organized enough to have the right number of kids out there. This seems to happen repeatly with some teams and not at all with others.

And under the principle that you will always make someone unhappy, we had a coach complain last year when we only penalized his the opponent for 5 yards. He argued that we should have let the play go and penalize them for 15, and by not doing so we cheated his team out of 10 yards.

[dumbref]

I agree – the rule was applied correctly under the circumstances. As for the behavior of the referee, the dad and the coach – it was absolutely deplorable by all. We are the adults and should set the example for the kids. What message did you send to your players?

Whether the call is correct or just wrong – there is a decorum that should be followed and a certain amount of respect that should be shown by all parties. The kids will learn a lot about conflict resolution from you coach. Are you proud of what you are teaching?

I’m not excusing the official from this either – shame on both of you! As for the dad - put him in the stands where he belongs.

[hawkishowl20]

How could the rule possibly be applied correctly under the circumstances? The official knowingly disregarded a dead ball foul in order to call a live ball foul. That is either malicious or ignorant, both being incorrect.

[HawkeyeCubP]

Originally Posted by hawkishowl20

How could the rule possibly be applied correctly under the circumstances? The official knowingly disregarded a dead ball foul in order to call a live ball foul. That is either malicious or ignorant, both being incorrect.

In your description, the defensive team had 12 players participating during the down. Nowhere in your play is the replaced player trying to leave the field.

Techincally speaking, that's how.

[hawkishowl20]

I would also like to see some of these rules if they are different then the ones I posted. While understandably confusing due to both containing “when 12 or men are on the field” the deciding factor seems to be when the player enters the field, and the player substituted’s reaction. Nothing seems to indicate that if the official messes up by not doing his job or pretending he didn’t he has the right to takes it out on the players by calling a penalty that is impossible to apply if the lesser occurred.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by hawkishowl20

The official knowingly disregarded a dead ball foul in order to call a live ball foul.

I'm curious as to how you know when the official realized there were 12 on the field. You are assuming that he knew before the snap based on what evidence??? Maybe he realized it as the play was happening and he saw two corners standing out there side-by-side and thought "That doesn't look right."

What exactly makes you think he knew, didn't kill it, and chose to let it go live vs. he didn't know until it was live???

[JRutledge]

My crew philosophy is to try to shut it down if there is clearly a substitution infraction or 12 people on the field. If that cannot happen the rules are in place to have a live ball substitution foul. I do not feel this is only the officials fault because many teams bring a lot of people on and off the field, especially on the defensive side of the ball; it can be hard to determine who is on the field and who should be off the field.

Peace