Illegal Substitution vs Participation

mcrowder · #1 (**permalink**) Fri Sep 17, 2004, 09:19am

This is predominantly an NCAA question, but if Fed rules are similar or identical, Fed opinions will be appreciated.

NCAA RULE 3-5-2-b: No player, in excess of 11, shall leave the field of play or an end zone while the ball is in play (S22). PENALTY - five yards from the previous spot.

Note: S22 is Substitution Infraction.

NCAA RULE 9-1-4-a: No substitute ... may interfere in any way with the ball or a player while the ball is in play.
NCAA RULE 9-1-4-b: Participation by 12 or more players is illegal participation.

One interesting note in 9-1-4-1: PENALTY (for illegal participation): 15 yards from the basic spot. The referee may enforce any penalty he considers equitable, INCLUDING awarding a score.

I assume we would not award a score unless someone came off the sideline in the middle of a play and made a tackle... but it does raise the interesting question about whether we can enforce 15 at the END of a run, instead of only from the initial Line of Scrimmage.

Here's the MAIN question (sorry for the long prelim). On a play where the defense has 12 on the field, and runs one off, but not in time (player 12 does not "participate"), every official I've ever worked with either A) blew it dead before the play started, and walked off 5 for Ill. Sub., or B) let the play run and flagged it and called it illegal participation. In a game last night, we discussed and determined that this was simply I.S. - and walked off 5. Is this in contradiction to common practice? Were we wrong? And what of the thought that if 12 players participate meaningfully, can (or should) we march off 15 from the end of the run?

SouthGARef · #2 (**permalink**) Fri Sep 17, 2004, 10:10am

Interesting enough, I've heard of an awarded score in this situation.

It was back in the 80s before I was working (heck, in the 80s I was only 5) and before the days of illegal substitution. One coach was infamous for running a 7-6 defense when it got down to the goal line inside the two (after all, the penalty would only be one yard or less). The state got wind of this, informed the coach of their displeasure, and told the referees and the coach this is what was going to happen. The very next game he did it without thinking, and the referee--with state overseers present--issued a score. The fans went nuts, but the head coach said "I forgot, give 'em their points" and went on.

We never had the problem again

Theisey · #3 (**permalink**) Fri Sep 17, 2004, 11:33am

Depends on what your supervisor of officials wants, which is some areas will contradict the actual rule.
I happen to be in camp ground where we do not let the play start and enforce only the 5 yard penalty.
If that can't be done because the count is late or the snap occurs before the recount is completed, the IP is enforced per rule.
That means you cannot tack it on to the end of the run.

Bob M. · #4 (**permalink**) Fri Sep 17, 2004, 11:42am

REPLY: Just a clarifying question...Are you describing a situation where the "excess" player (actually a replaced player) doesn't leave within the three seconds specified by the NCAA and only after that timeframe begins to leave, or are you describing a situation where the guy leaves "immediately" but just doesn't get off the field before the snap. That's two different situations. Which were you describing?

mcrowder · #5 (**permalink**) Fri Sep 17, 2004, 11:46am

Sometimes that's muddy... but in this particular situation, the defense never huddled (the whole game). A player came on to replace the CB on the opposite side, yelling the current CB's name, who then ran across the field toward his own sideline - and was at or near the numbers when the ball was snapped. He was never involved in the play.

Bob M. · #6 (**permalink**) Fri Sep 17, 2004, 12:01pm

Quote:

Originally posted by mcrowder
Sometimes that's muddy... but in this particular situation, the defense never huddled (the whole game). A player came on to replace the CB on the opposite side, yelling the current CB's name, who then ran across the field toward his own sideline - and was at or near the numbers when the ball was snapped. He was never involved in the play.

REPLY: Based on this description, he met the requirement of "leaving immediately" so all he needs to do is get his butt off the field before the snap. If he doesn't, he's violated, as you correctly point out, 3-5-2b which clearly defines this as a live ball substitution infraction. There's no way in my opinion that this could ever be blown as a dead ball foul: If he makes it off the field, there's no foul and everyone's happy; if he doesn't, the snap has intervened and created the foul. While there are some fouls in NCAA that cause the ball to become dead, this ain't one of them!

PiggSkin · #7 (**permalink**) Fri Sep 17, 2004, 12:13pm

Our association (NFHS) prefers that we do our best to not call the illegal substitutions that stem from a replaced player not quite making it off the field... They tell us to:

1) As a wing, definitely do not take your eyes off the LOS to determine if the player crossed the sideline before the snap, and
2) If the replaced player is running toward the sideline, and it appears that they make not make it, the wing official should (formations permitting) take a few steps onto the field... This makes it likely that the replaced player will be out of the peripheral vision of the wing... Of course, if you can't see him, you can't call the foul, even if he hasn't quite made it off the field...

Do other associations have similar mechanics or philosophies..?

mcrowder · #8 (**permalink**) Fri Sep 17, 2004, 12:39pm

Piggskin - at V and JV - no. We're told to call the foul there. At 9th and lower, I've often stepped out onto the field 3-4 steps so that I didn't see the player.

In this particular situation, however, it was 8th grade, but the kid was way out at the numbers when the ball was snapped.

What's getting me on this particular sitch, is that I even talked to a supervisor today - and he indicated that if you flag 12-men on the field and don't shut it down immediately - you HAVE to call it IP, and walk off 15. I don't think the rule is written that way, and I do think you can have a live-ball I.S., without assuming the kid is "participating" thus requiring IP. He is going to discuss with the chapter president - hopefully I'll get a accurate read of how they want us to call this.

We - as most of you - are taught to avoid the 15 on this, but I don't feel comfortable blowing it dead (penalizing the offense) in this scenario.