substitution vs participation

[OverAndBack]

Originally Posted by hawkishowl20

I was simply saying it takes less than 1 second to count offense in formation.

Really? Awesome.

Originally Posted by hawkishowl20

Yes, that is why I have incorrectly quoted the case book numerous times including the OP.

There, I fixed it for ya

[Rich]

Originally Posted by hawkishowl20

No, but I didn't realize so many officials are so cavalier about counting on time. I was simply saying it takes less than 1 second to count offense in formation. Let me save you a post because I know you will say “You’re an official and you don’t know you count the offense before they get in formation.” I am curious what would cause you to not count in time specifically?

In a situation where there's a hurry-up offense, the officials might be working hard to get the ball spotted. I know for a fact I didn't have a count last night on a few plays (before the snap) since we were working four and I was spotting the ball before signaling the RFP and getting out of the way so they could run the next play.

Punt situations, where subs are off and on too quickly -- I may count 12, but I'm not throwing my flag until I recount 12. If I don't get through a second count, I'll make sure to get it during/after the play, but then we have IP, not IS.

The penalty is not having 12 on the field prior to the snap -- it's the 12th coming on and his substitute not leaving in a timely manner. If the snap occurs before we can determine if a substitute left, then there's little we can do.

Serious question, now. Do you officiate? I absolutely will not work a game with 3 officials anymore (life's too short, IMO), but I'm guessing your games are played with 3. Do you think 3 guys, working to get a ball spotted, working to make sure the chains are right, etc. are going to be able to leisurely count the players on every play in order to overcome the teams' inability to put 12 on the field? I would do the best I could, but not feel at all guilty if I didn't get the count before the snap and had to penalize IP. Wouldn't affect my sleep.

[RMR]

Originally Posted by hawkishowl20

No, but I didn't realize so many officials are so cavalier about counting on time. I was simply saying it takes less than 1 second to count offense in formation. Let me save you a post because I know you will say “You’re an official and you don’t know you count the offense before they get in formation.” I am curious what would cause you to not count in time specifically?

Being an official, as you claim, surely you realize that there are other pre-snap responsibilities besides counting players right?

Why would you bring up counting the offense? I thought it was a defensive player in question.

What position do you work, anyhow?

[grantsrc]

This thread has got to be one of the longest pi**ing contests I've ever seen. Seriously everyone, isn't it time to move on?

[OverAndBack]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Serious question, now. Do you officiate? I absolutely will not work a game with 3 officials anymore (life's too short, IMO), but I'm guessing your games are played with 3. Do you think 3 guys, working to get a ball spotted, working to make sure the chains are right, etc. are going to be able to leisurely count the players on every play in order to overcome the teams' inability to put 12 on the field?

Well, it takes less than a second.....

[hawkishowl20]

Originally Posted by RMR

Being an official, as you claim, surely you realize that there are other pre-snap responsibilities besides counting players right?

Yes

Why would you bring up counting the offense? I thought it was a defensive player in question.

I was talking about counting. I brought it up because it pertains to counting.

What position do you work, anyhow?

I'm not on a crew anymore because my coaching creates scheduling conflicts :-( I do fill in occasionally when need be. Whatever position necessary obviously.

[hawkishowl20]

All my home games have 4. This away game had 4.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by hawkishowl20

Yes

I was talking about counting. I brought it up because it pertains to counting.

I'm not on a crew anymore because my coaching creates scheduling conflicts :-( I do fill in occasionally when need be. Whatever position necessary obviously.

Then you know that it takes more than a second to count 11. And that you absolutely must recount if you arrive at a number other than 11.

Grant's right. Time to move on.

Originally Posted by hawkishowl20

I'm not on a crew anymore because my coaching creates scheduling conflicts :-( I do fill in occasionally when need be. Whatever position necessary obviously.

Due to your schedule conflicts attending camps, clinics, rules meetings, etc. probably aren't on your high priority list of things to do, correct?



Why is it that the "I referee too" guys always seem to ref on a part-part-time basis, never invest in themselves by attending camps but KNOW all the rules?

[kdf5]

Originally Posted by grantsrc

This thread has got to be one of the longest pi**ing contests I've ever seen. Seriously everyone, isn't it time to move on?

For sure. 12 pages arguing with a youth coach. I guess it never occurred to him to teach his kids that s*** happens, life deals you some curveballs, and it's how you react to it that counts. Whatever happened to the high road?

[mikesears]

Please moderator.... for the love of all that is holy....... lock this thread. 12 pages of crap.

[MNBlue]

I wasted a boatload of time reading this thread and I was thinking the entire time, "Several years ago, before we were instructed to have a dead ball IS foul if the player being substituted for didn't leave in a timely manner, we didn't do anything if there were 12 on the field. We counted A & B; if A was short, we made sure we had 7 on the line; if either was over, we waited to see what happened. If the extra player(s) left, we had nothing; if they tried to get off the field but didn't, we had IS; if they stayed and participated, we had IP.

Now, we do things differently.

I was wondering if the official in question, almost 200 posts ago, was officiating with the older interpretation in mind? It's possible, knowing the types (pre-judging) of officials that end up working youth football games. Maybe he was as out of date with what he was suppose to do as the original poster was misunderstanding the IS/IP differences?

Obviously, mistakes happen. It's how we deal with mistakes that define us as coaches/officials/players.

As far as youngump is concerned, there is a reason that football has the difference in distance for the penalties, and that they don't transfer to BB or BB or SB.

If we observe the 12 on the field with no one immediately leaving, we don't have an "injury risk" due to the extra player. We observe and penalize without allowing the ball to be put into play. Once the ball is in play AND we didn't observe the extra player AND he participates, by Football Fundamental, we can't stop the play. Now, we have an "injury risk", because we are playing 12 against 11. That is why the penalty is greater before the ball is alive verses after the ball is alive.

In BB and BB and SB, the officials determine when the ball is alive. We hold up play until we and the players are ready. In football, it is the responsiblity of the teams to field the correct number of players and for the officials to count them. Sometimes we make mistakes counting - most times we don't. But a major differnence is that in football, the offense determines when the ball becomes alive. So, the officials have less control about delaying if there are extra players on the field/court.

Sorry to drag this never ending thread on even longer.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by MNBlue

I was wondering if the official in question, almost 200 posts ago, was officiating with the older interpretation in mind? It's possible, knowing the types (pre-judging) of officials that end up working youth football games. Maybe he was as out of date with what he was suppose to do as the original poster was misunderstanding the IS/IP differences?

Reads as reasonable to me. Considering how slowly many youth players wake up to being subbed for, then even if the league was supposedly following Fed rules, some of the officials may have a mental reservation about enforcing "immediate" substitution with children, else they'd have IS violations galore, and was enforcing only IP in such cases. If hawkishowl's teams were better at executing substitution than other teams in their league, he may not have realized officials were allowing extra players to leave up until the moment the ball was put in play. Just a guess.

Robert

[hawkishowl20]

The last two posts make a lot of sense. Had they been the first two responses this thread would be one page.