substitution vs participation

[hawkishowl20]

Originally Posted by youngump

(I thought I did too with my third paragraph. But not with that one.)

So is illegal substitution. In all three cases the player violated a rule that should cause the ball to stay dead and the ball is made live. In the first two you go ahead and fix it but in the substitution case you instead call a live ball foul and penalize more.
That seems as weird to me as if the penalty for delay of game were 5 yards and the penalty for running a play after the play clock expired was 15.

"If delay of game were 5 yards and the penalty for running a play after the play clock expired was 15." It is exactly like that only it is more important for officials to stop play in the substitution case for safety reasons. It is actually impossible to call participation when a substitution occurred without being guilty of neglect… blow it dead.

[hawkishowl20]

Originally Posted by hawkishowl20

"If delay of game were 5 yards and the penalty for running a play after the play clock expired was 15." It is exactly like that only it is more important for officials to stop play in the substitution case for safety reasons. It is actually impossible to call participation when a substitution occurred without being guilty of neglect… blow it dead.

It is like ignoring a defensive end lined up in the offensive backfield and than calling a personnel foul when he puts the quarterback in a stretcher. Neglecting one penalty in order to allow dangerous situations and than ignoring everything that led to that point. Like awaking from a slumber of neglect.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by hawkishowl20

I thought they might have been, but with no officials on screen and no sound of whistles and the QB (I don’t remember if he threw the ball or was about to) well into the play. What’s the difference?

The difference is that they were already killing the play before the ball was snapped meaning the ball was never legally snapped so the play never actually began. In Federation, a penalty does not kill a live play. I believe in NCAA the only way a penalty kills a play is if it is an illegal kick but I am not sure.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by hawkishowl20

It is actually impossible to call participation when a substitution occurred without being guilty of neglect… blow it dead.

In your opinion coach. Counting players isn't the only pre-snap responsibility of officials. Don't forget the responsibility for having the correct amount of players on the field is yours, not ours. While we will shut it down if we can, we aren't forcing you to put too many players on the field.

OK I'm done, anything more is tilting at windmills.

[PSU213]

Originally Posted by hawkishowl20

It is like ignoring a defensive end lined up in the offensive backfield and than calling a personnel foul when he puts the quarterback in a stretcher. Neglecting one penalty in order to allow dangerous situations and than ignoring everything that led to that point. Like awaking from a slumber of neglect.

OK, while I will not, once again, get drug too thourougly into this, I must make one comment: this is not a trial, we are not in court, and the is not the college debate club. You need to give up the unethical and neglect talk. Nowhere was it proved that the official acted maliciously (and, no, the supposed fact that he had his hand on his penalty flag before the snap does not in any way prove that the official knew the correct count before the snap). When you blantanly call an official unethical and accuse him of negelct, you better darn well have concrete proof of such violations. If you want to debate the rules, fine, but, please, don't drag what may be an honest man through the mud just because you want to prove a point.

[Scooby]

Originally Posted by hawkishowl20

The participation penalty assumes that the officials are competent and able to count players on the field in under a minute. It takes less than a second to determine any offense (with 5 interior lineman) has 11. That leaves a lot of time for the defense. Under no circumstances should this situation occur. Participation can only be called if the 12th defensive player runs on within 3 seconds of the snap to after the snap. Otherwise it’s on the official to call a substitution penalty. I’m sorry if you feel guilty about this but it’s just the way it is. Take the ignorant blinders off.

First of all different officials count offense and defense, so how long it takes to count offense has no place in this discussion.

Second, your statement "Under no circumstances should this situation occur" is unfounded as the casebook states in 3.7.1 SIT B: ...or (b) A12 is in the formation as an extra lineman. This clearly implies that this situation does occur.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by Scooby

Second, your statement "Under no circumstances should this situation occur" is unfounded as the casebook states in 3.7.1 SIT B: ...or (b) A12 is in the formation as an extra lineman. This clearly implies that this situation does occur.

I wouldn't go by that. Situations are sometimes retained in case books well after rules changes make them impossible.

However, a situation in which illegal participation as a result of dead ball substitution could occur even with clairvoyant officials would be if the 12th player was heading toward the team bench area, then the ball was put in play and that player changed his mind and decided to participate that down.

Robert

[Rich]

Originally Posted by hawkishowl20

I would also like to see some of these rules if they are different then the ones I posted. While understandably confusing due to both containing “when 12 or men are on the field” the deciding factor seems to be when the player enters the field, and the player substituted’s reaction. Nothing seems to indicate that if the official messes up by not doing his job or pretending he didn’t he has the right to takes it out on the players by calling a penalty that is impossible to apply if the lesser occurred.

As a Wisconsin official, I tried working Saturday youth football right after I moved to the state. I gave that up after too many encounters with hothead know-it-alls like this original poster. Now I only work school ball where I have complete control of the situation. I have a varsity crew and if youth football wasn't so disorganized here, I'd have my crew working on Saturdays for experience and for some extra moolah. It just isn't worth it.

Look, OP: You are absolutely right. If the crew (and that's a big if, especially if your organization is CHEEEEEAP and hires only 3 officials to work these games, which is pretty normal, I've found) they are simply not going to get a count in before every snap of the game. If they do, fine, it's a five yard illegal substitution penalty.

If they don't get a count before the snap and 12 play, it's illegal participation, live ball, 15 yards. And before you pass this blame on the officials, WHO PUT 12 ON THE FIELD IN THE FIRST PLACE?

As far as the conduct of the official and your conduct, I would be happy that youth programs where coaches act like you did are able to get any licensed officials to work. Be thankful. I wouldn't touch youth football again unless things changed dramatically around here.

[OverAndBack]

To paraphrase Brian Billick:

Players play.

Coaches coach.

Owners own.

Writers write.

Officials officiate.

If everyone just does their specific tasks, we're okay. It's when people believe they are well-versed in the tasks the other groups do that we have problems.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Blue37

There are a couple of pee wee leagues in my area that use the commissioner's son or brother-in-law or mechanic or whoever is available. Those guys have no current rule books and just call what they see on TV. Maybe he is one of them. That would explain a few things!

And they use these guys because of hothead idiots like the original poster. No licensed official wants to put up with this crap (or won't do it for what they are paying).

It is amazing how uninformed this guy is. Dangerous to run a play with 12? Allowing a player to line up in the neutral zone is dangerous to the quarterback?

Jeez, I'm getting dizzy with all the stupid coach-speak being bandied about here. It's very rare that we officials keep players from getting hit or hurt. My whistle and flag doesn't stop players, common sense and not being a thug stops players. You hear coaches say "play to the whistle" and then try to blame the officials if there's a late hit because the "whistle" was late. My goodness.

Working a freshman game, a trainer actually asked a wing to have a quicker whistle on plays so players wouldn't get hurt. I told the wing that he should tell the trainer to call me so I can tell him how to wrap an ankle.

[LeRoy]

Originally Posted by hawkishowl20

First, in 4 years teams I’ve coached have had maybe one other substitution penalty. Second, I love how some people have a built in prejudice here. I’m not looking for blind hate but rather logical thought. Third, It might help you to know that both my defensive coordinator and myself are officials when we aren’t coaching. It also may help some of you to know this is the first real disagreement I’ve ever had with officials while coaching a game. Let’s keep your silly emotional venting that has nothing to do with me or this conversation out of it.

I just have one question. If you are an official, and this problem happens in your game are you going to call it Illegal substitution?

[bisonlj]

Originally Posted by LeRoy

I just have one question. If you are an official, and this problem happens in your game are you going to call it Illegal substitution?

I am doing everything I can to count the players before the snap and shut it down for an illegal subsctitution before the snap. But if I don't get the count completed for some reason and confirm after the play that there were 12 players, there will be an illegal participation. I'm happy to say we've never had an illegal participation for this reason and illegal substitution is also very rare (2 or 3 times each season).

[Robert Goodman]

Youth football scrapes the bottom of the barrel for officials for several reasons, all related to money. One is that the scholastic programs outbid them money-wise for personnel. Another is that conditions are poor, with small crews, poorly marked fields, and uncertain times. By the latter I mean the start of games may be delayed because of a need to wait for the field to become available, but on the other hand forfeits are not uncommon. You may wind up with a game ending in near darkness, have to deal with people who wander thru the field because they don't realize a game is under way, be asked to enforce many local variant rules, all sorts of conditions that wouldn't come up often in scholastic ball.

Of course the coaches operate under those & other handicaps as well, not related to money. Talk about 12 on the field? Last year the Jr. Pee-Wee team I coached on had trouble keeping 11 on the field -- players kept taking themselves out or failing to go in! There were occasions you could've called USC on coaches on the same side cursing each other out.

Robert

[hawkishowl20]

This is the whole point. I know how to count. Maybe I give others to much credit, but it isn’t hard and it doesn’t take long. This specific situation had loads of “extra time” to count. The official also proved by many actions he knew the count before the snap. Grabbing the flag and holding it until the snap then throwing it the instant the snap occurred is a good indication of that knowledge. He made a mistake. I didn’t yell at him. I brought up the correct rule. Instead of apologizing or giving the only possible (but actually impossible due to his actions) justification of not having the count in time, he went ballistic. He couldn’t bring himself to accept that he was wrong and took it out on me. I wanted to be sure of the rules because this was so out of the ordinary and didn’t want to be guilty of “dragging this guy through the mud.” This guy was probably hired by our opposition not my league which could as suggested be the explanation for his inexperience and low quality. I don’t know how this particular opponent staffs it’s games. I think the people that have posted using the fact that I have actively questioned one call in 15 years of football as evidence that I am some sort of hothead is an indictment of their professionalism (if they have any). I have found the conclusion to the questions.

I didn’t do anything out of line by simply stating rules (correctly)

The official made a mistake maliciously or in incompetence about enforcing a rule. Than compounded the error hundreds of times by lashing out at me.

I should have perhaps known he was acting childish immediately, but I was honestly not sure hence my request for a conference at all. I don’t remember my exact words used to calm him down so they aren’t really in my OP although I stated I had to calm him down.

The rules are somewhat flawed in that they allow unethical abuse and create honest confusion among some, but otherwise fine. I did think this specific situation needed to be addressed by the rules but now realize it was simply the officials error.

If I was officiating this wouldn’t have happened because the count never is a problem. So, it would have to take some extra-ordinary circumstances like the extra player entering the field within 3 seconds of the snap. That actually is illegal participation so I would call that. If I was vomiting or something prior to the snap and missed the count I would call participation. I would explain to the defensive teams coach that I made a mistake do to my vomiting and had to apply a rule that isn’t really intended for that situation.

In terms of amending the rules. The ethical question still remains because this does get botched up from time to time. If the official knows he made a mistake he probably should be able to blow it dead during a live ball for safety or have a different infraction to enforce. The team couldn’t have committed the participation if the ref did his job, but he didn’t so it’s a 10 yard live ball substitution or something.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by hawkishowl20

The official made a mistake maliciously or in incompetence about enforcing a rule. Than compounded the error hundreds of times by lashing out at me.

Who put 12 on the field, anyway? Perhaps someone else ought to be looking into the "incompetence" mirror.

The only mistake the official made was engaging you for so long. I wouldn't have even come to the sidelines to discuss this with you.