illegal Substitution or illegal Participation

[verticalStripes]

B has 12 men on the field. All are ready to participate at the snap. Is this a dead ball foul for illegal substitution, or a live ball foul for illegal participation?


I believe this is a live ball foul for illegal participation because all 12 defensive players are participating in the snap. My fellow officials disagreed. They believed that the play should be blown dead when the snap becomes imminent.

Thanks

verticalStripes

[TXMike]

If you catch it before the snap, shut it down and penalize 5 instead of waiting for snap and then having to penalize 15.

And as Rich points out below....USUALLY the other guys in your Chapter are going to be a good resource, so listen to them. The quickest way to alienate the rest of the guys as a new guy is to suggest you know more than they.

[Edited by TXMike on Oct 11th, 2003 at 08:00 PM]

[Rich]

Listen to your partners. If there are 12, then a substituted player did not leave immediately. Illegal substitution. Get the flag out and hit the whistle before you have to penalize 15 yards.

Rich

[timharris]

hello
here in eastern virginia where i work we kill all plays before the snap and whoever has 12 men on the field we hit them with a illegal subsitution infraction which is a 5 yard penalty; we never allow 12 men too participate.


thanks

tim

[Warrenkicker]

Just remember that we never allow the offense to play with 12. We never let them stay in the huddle with 12. Why should we let the defense be penalized worse for the same infraction? Always try to get 12 before the snap on either team if you can.

[AlabamaBlue]

Never ever let a team play with 12 men, shut it down.

[chris s]

Saw this last season in D1 fed ball playoff, our mechanics have LJ and BJ count D....A has 4th and 7 at B's 25, boom ..here comes A's scrimmage kick team, B is running players in and out as BJ and LJ are busting to get under the goal...count gets missed, A's kick fails and then out comes a 15 yard flag on B...A then scores td in the next few plays....sucky sit

[MD Longhorn]

Common sense says to blow it before the snap and penalize 5 yards.
Veteran officials say to blow it before the snap and penalize 5 yards.
And it just seems right to blow it before the snap and penalize 5 yards.

Problem is - in NCAA, the rules do not tell you to do that, and neither do the caseplays. The book tells you to prevent offense from running 12, but not defense. The other problem with calling it via common sense and not the book is that defense is ALLOWED to run their 12th man off the field if they can do it in time. So, exactly which second should we blow it dead?

Personally, I agree that it's not fair to give offense the 5-yard out instead of 15, and not the defense... but someone needs to put it in the book.

[TXMike]

The NCAA rules DO tell you to shut it down. Check 3-5-2-c. That applies to both A and B, except for the last sentence which talks about A breaking the huddle. All the other situations apply to A and B. A.R. 3-5-2-IV is also right on point.

[hawkishowl20]

Shut it down. The only way a defensive player can illegally participate on my crew is if they run on after the snap.

[wwcfoa43]

Originally Posted by verticalStripes

B has 12 men on the field. All are ready to participate at the snap. Is this a dead ball foul for illegal substitution, or a live ball foul for illegal participation?

I believe this is a live ball foul for illegal participation because all 12 defensive players are participating in the snap. My fellow officials disagreed. They believed that the play should be blown dead when the snap becomes imminent.

Canadian Ruling:

Legal Play!

But seriously, on plays where either the offense or defense have too many men (13 in Canada) we always allow the play to stand and then we have a 10 yard penalty enforced from the previous spot.

[With_Two_Flakes]

Every clinic I've been too (USA, Europe) where this question has been discussed - they've told me to shut it down.