Overruling your partner?

[PS2Man]

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue

No need to call you names. I can dress you down just fine without them. Why not respond to Rut's quote that I copied and pasted here? Uh, oh...did you really read all of the threads (General, BB, Basketball and Football) relating to this post or just what you wanted? Uneducated people swear when they can't think of a reply to a debate. But, again, I'm the travesty.

WCB,

You are a travesty because you are trying to make a mountain of a molehill. You have name called, insulted people that do not agree with you and acted like a complete and total ***. You only look for a few people that seem to take a point of view and not read all the posts. And to top it all off you are not even an official in the sports you seem to have such an opinion on. I really do not care about all the other stuff you have stated. I do care when someone like yourself acts totally out of line when someone disagrees with you. Rut is not the problem here, you are. Rut asked a simple question and no one got personal until you started posting. I have been reading this board for some time even before I posted. I have never seen your name over here. I have never seen you add to the many discussions about all the other issues that concern football officials on this board. You came here to try to make a personal issue with rut and get on his behind because you do not like him.

WCB, go away. Go back to the back to the baseball board. You were laughed off the basketball board and Jurrassic got all over you there and the baseball board when you talked out of turn. I am not taking sides at all. I am just pointing out that you are a troubled individual if you cannot disagree without being disagreeable. Rut did not attack you in this post or even use your name.

Let it go. We do not care anymore. You could not be a respected umpire if the people that looked up to you say your behavior here.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue

I’m glad to see how adamant you are regarding this discussion. “Never overrule your partner’s call.” You should probably give MLB a phone call, since four (4) foul ball homerun calls were overruled this year. They probably did not get the memo that you and Rut did.

This is the football board, who gives a damn what Major League Baseball do. Major League Baseball also has umpire (officials) get in the face of coaches and players. If a football or basketball officials at the pro and college level did that, they would not have a job after the season or game. I do no think the MLB comparison is relevant to this discussion.

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
IÂ’ve been at this quite a while, as well - on the field and as an instructor at clinics across the country. When you have worked at my level (3 yrs. rostered Minor League, another 8 as a local with the Northern and Frontier Leagues, NCAA D-1/2/3, High School and an American Legion National Championship Series) then you can tell me what is proper mechanically and ethically.

You should be commended or patted on the back for what you have accomplished. But any knowledgeable official knows that what goes on in one sport does not automatically translate to another. Have you done any of those things in football or basketball? Since we are on the football board we know what you accomplishments are there. You have never worked a game, so I really do not care what baseball umpire you do. I do not even umpire past the spring time on purpose.

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
What will you do when your partner says "It was a touchdown." and the rest of the crew KNOW it ws not, but he won't budge? Your owns words indicate that youÂ’ve obviously made your choice.

Depending on the position of the other officials, they are not going to know for sure. If I am a Referee or a back judge or a wing, that call might just be one officials call. Of course there are situations that apply, but all calls are not going to be judged by fellow officials. And just like it was stated before by someone, in football it is very common for two different officials to see different things.

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
I originally posed this question on the baseball board two months ago. Rut jumped in and showed the world how not to debate. He couldn't let it go...HE POSTED IT ON THE FOOTBALL, BASKETBALL AND GENERAL BOARDS, not I.

For the record I posted this on the football and baseball boards. You kept referring to those sports and what football and basketball officials did; I thought it would be appropriate to ask the question to those officials directly. It is one thing to ask a bunch of people that do not work those sports, but it is quite another to ask the officials that we are talking about. I did not say why I asked the question, I just asked the question. And I never posted this question on the GENERAL BOARD. It was moved there by moderators after you and I got into it. I also posted this question on the McGriff boards for review. The sentiment was pretty much the same, you cannot over rule partners.

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
Another member alerted me to his deeds and by the time I got here, Jumpmaster had already taken him to task for not giving up. I never asked for you to choose sides, but you seem to have received some bad information and your horse came up lame.

Who the hell is Jumpmaster? Is he some officiating God that we must all talk to before we get on the field? Is he some very well respected official that we all have to listen to when it comes to officiating matters? Does he give us all playoff games? You keep referring to this guy like the rest of us should give a damn. I am sure he is a great guy, but in the past few days there have been about 4 people that agreed with my point of view and summarized my point of view very well. There names are not relevant and have an opinion that is no more valuable than Jumpmaster. We all come from different areas of the country and work different levels and different sports. I do not care what Jumpmaster thinks on this issue. I do not care what you really think about this issue. I mostly find if funny that you are telling officials that actually work the sport what they can and cannot do.

Peace

[WindyCityBlue]

I LOVED THE LAST LINE OF YOUR POST.

WAS THAT THE GOLDEN RULE YOU LIVE BY OR JUST A CUTE LITTLE TURN OF PHRASE THAT OTHERS SHOULD EMBRACE?

I COULDN'T FIGURE IT OUT FROM THE BODY OF YOUR MESSAGE.

[PS2Man]

WCB,

I have not called you any names. I did not even get personal with you. The only thing I have said that is remotely personal is about your behavior. I just do not see how someone in your position can act they way you do and achieve the things you say you have. You talk about ego and how someone is just holding on to their ego by not making the right call at all costs. All you have shown is that you do not have enough manhood to admit you might be out of your element as an official here. This is not just a baseball discussion and cannot be confined to a baseball discussion. Baseball is a completely different sport. As a baseball umpire myself I have never overruled a partner. If they ask for help I will offer help. If we have discussed something before the game I will only give that help in specific situations. That is my opinion and if it is only my opinion it has worked for me for almost 20 years.

[cowbyfan1]

Originally posted by Blue37

cowboyfan1: If I understand you correctly, if he had said "No, you should not wave off the flag.", you would not have waved it off. How many yards would the umpire have marked off? What signal would you have given? What would your explanation to the offensive coach have been if he had questioned the call?

I would have asked him then what is it I'm supposed to call. He would have had to come up with a legit foul per Federation rules.

[schmitty1973]

WSB, Here's an idea. One day when you're doing a baseball game, tell your crew that "getting the call right" is most important. But remember to put your ego to rest when your 2nd base ump tells you that he thinks a pitch you called a ball was a strike. Just get the call right.

[Jaysef]

Please, stop...I can't stay away from this board and need to get some work done! I can't stay away, though...this dragging of a dead mule is like reality television...we like to watch others make themselves look stupid. WCB, LET IT GO!

[WindyCityBlue]

Originally posted by PS2Man
WCB,

I have not called you any names. I did not even get personal with you. The only thing I have said that is remotely personal is about your behavior.




You are a travesty because you are trying to make a mountain of a molehill. You have name called, insulted people that do not agree with you and acted like a complete and total ***.

WCB, go away. Go back to the back to the baseball board. You were laughed off the basketball board and Jurrassic got all over you there and the baseball board when you talked out of turn. I am not taking sides at all. I am just pointing out that you are a troubled individual if you cannot disagree without being disagreeable.

Yes, these were you words from a couple posts ago. But,you did not call me names or insult me. Your sense of righteousness is misplaced.




As a baseball umpire myself I have never overruled a partner. If they ask for help I will offer help. If we have discussed something before the game I will only give that help in specific situations. That is my opinion and if it is only my opinion it has worked for me for almost 20 years.

Excellent advice...your experience has shown no need to ever correct a bad call. I've seen multiple plays in the MLB and two in the CWS that showed improper calls being made and the crew corrected the mistake. I have never once advocated stopping play and announcing, "Hey, Nimrod, that was a horsesh*t call, let me correct it." You may want to revisit my narrative and see that I suggest there is a proper way to handle it. I am a member of three D-1 baseball crews. I am the crew chief of one. If one of my guys boots a call (rare, because they are very good) we get together and point out that we have a different ruling and that WE NEED TO GET THE CALL RIGHT. His ego may be bruised, but we gain the respect of the people that matter, by making sure the game is called correctly. You may have a different tact, c'est wonderful. All I've ever asked, is that when YOU SEE a call that is blown, you have the stones to get the call corrected.

Some of you understand that this is going to be tough, especially in big games when a prize is on the line. That is when it is even more important. Look at the Olympics...Paul Hamm won a gold medal because of an error made by the judges. Not a judgement error, mind you, but a human error that caused the outcome to be altered. The Lorean did not file the protest correctly, but if there is justice in the world, the governing body will award two golds and acknowledge the error. If not, his award will always be tarnished and the officials will never be respected. The good of the game demands that if you can correct a bad call, you do it. If the rules forbid it, then work to change the rules. Officiate the game like your son was playing in it and the bad call went against him.

[PS2Man]

WCB let it go. You are now using gymnastics as a guide to your position? I do not even consider gymnastics a real sport. Anything where the outcome is judged that in my opinion cannot be a real sport. They do not out jump anyone or knock anyone down to determine the winner. They might as well make the Ms. America Pageant an Olympic sport as well.

WCB let it go. You have long beat a dead horse. You are not changing minds. If anything you are hurting your position by acting like a 10 year old.

[WindyCityBlue]

...acting like a ten year old.

Is that another of your examples of not calling names and taking the high road? Apparently, using a metaphor, analogy or refernce that is not football explicit is taboo in your world.

It is ironic that you feel free to throw barbs and dismiss my experience without offering more than "20 years officiating" as contrary thought.

You cannot argue with, we AS OFFICIALS, are charged with the duty to call the game fairly. If you see a bad call made and have the ability to correct it (HOWEVER YOU CHOOSE), then it should be done. Otherwise the examples you are setting are dismal. What about the next generation officials? Would you rather have ten guys that just go through the motions or one who does whatever he can to make the game fair and works to make other more responsible? I would rather have one guy that knows the difference between right and wrong and doesn't let his ego get in the way. Maybe this Board is different.

I'm done.

[PS2Man]

Windy City Blue,

I have only debated this issue with you because I could not believe someone was so absurd in their beliefs on this. I thought maybe you could see a happy medium and see the point of view of others. It is clear that will never happen. I am really in shock that you are a D1 Umpire and more likely are now questioning that statement. There is a guy in my group that behaves just like you. He goes around and tells everyone how much better he is and that everyone else does not deserve their playoff assignments as he does. He is a football officials and no one wants to work with him. He has done the very things you suggest from time to time always trying to dictate what his partner's call. Or at the very least what they should call. This year he is complaining to folks that he is working less then 5 varsity games. He is not a bad official but he does things that completely piss off his fellow officials in games. He has such a bad reputation no matter how good of an official is his attitude overshadows his ability. When you talk to him it is always politics and the buddy system that keeps him back.

I am sure you are a great guy and a great official. But your attitude is what concerns me. I just wonder what you would do if 2 officials have a different opinion, one the calling official and you are the lone guy telling them they got it wrong? Who is right then? How do you change a call and you are outnumbered?

I believe in getting it right. I also believe in working as a team. There is not one individual bigger than the team.

I wish you great success in your further officiating adventures. I just hope you will learn that it is not all about you. This is my last post on this issue. I see you will never see the light.

[SoGARef]

Windy,

I will not attempt to tell you how to handle a situtation in baseball because it is not my domain. However, in football I would have a way of handling a situation like you present. It is called a USC foul and if you persisted it would be followed by an ejection.

I have a question for you. You have been espousing that one should strive to always get the call right. I have yet to read a single post on this very long thread that has disagreed with this general statement. Every one in their own way had agreed with you on that. Here's my question. Your partner in a game makes a call that you, and only you, see to be incorrect. You approach your partner and inform him that you saw it another way. What do you do if he says he saw it the way he called it and you are wrong? In baseball you may have a crew chief who is by rule incharge of the game and has the authority to overrule any other official on the field. In football, there is no official who has authority over the other officials. The referee is informally called the crew chief because in most cases he is the most senior member of the crew. The referee wears a white hat only for differentiation from other members for easy identification by the pressbox, radio/TV personnel, fans and coaches because he signals the information. No where in the rules of football does it say that when there is a dispute among officials the referee shall have the final say.

I have had situations where I have asked a fellow crew member about a call that I thought he had wrong. A prime example is the block in the back. If the block is originally a legal block and the opponent spins on the blocker and the blocker does not break contact then there is no block in the back. I will always ask when this foul is reported to me if the official saw the initial contact. One of the cannons of football officiating is that if you did not see the complete action you do not call the possible foul. I have many times not called the possible clip because all I saw was two guys on the ground with one laying on the back of the other's legs. I'm pretty sure we had a foul, but I didn't see the whole action.

The way you have come across in you posts makes it seem that you say that you call is always better than the other guys and you will make sure it is corrected to what you saw because that is the "right call". Maybe that is not what you are saying, but that is how you are being perceived as coming across. Always remember that perception is reality to those who perceive it.

[jjrye22]

Originally posted by insatty
I'm the white hat on a three-man crew working a JV game. A sweep right, and as A1 tries to turn the corner A2 throws a vicious block on B1 who has the best angle to tackle A1. The block is entirely legal: high and, because B1 had just turned, in front.

But out comes HL's flag. I call a conference of we three and I attempt to talk HL out of the flag. HL adamantly refuses to correct his call, out of pure ego. L didn't see the block, so the vote is one against one and I let the call stand.

Although I have many higher-level games and a few years behind me now, my failure to wave off that flag still haunts me to this day.

I think this is probably the best possible example we have seen of 'Overruling' another offical. Most of the other discussions are about working together and coming to a conclusion.
In this example (I have had a similar experience last year), the officials could not come to a consensus, and the offical that threw his flag got his way - even though there was a ligitimate question about the foul.
insatty did not overrule the flag - and since he could not convince the HL of what he saw, the foul has to stand.
If not, who gets the final say? Can a BJ overrule a SJ on a pass - can an U overrule a LJ on holding - can a LJ overrule an U on the same holding???

insatty - I was also not able to change the mind of the covering offical, and it bugs me a lot, but I couldn't do anything about it. Afterwards we discussed it, and he was still too 'proud/stubborn' to admit it could have been differently - oh well. We try to reduce the mistakes made to minimize the damage, but sometimes mistakes do get made.

James

[WindyCityBlue]

Originally posted by SoGARef
Windy,
I have a question for you. Your partner in a game makes a call that you, and only you, see to be incorrect.
You approach your partner and inform him that you saw it another way.
What do you do if he says he saw it the way he called it and you are wrong?
In baseball, you may have a crew chief who is by rule in charge of the game
and has the authority to overrule any other official on the field.
In football, there is no official who has authority over the other officials.
The referee is informally called the crew chief because in most cases he is the most senior member of the crew.
The referee wears a white hat only for differentiation from other members for easy identification
by the pressbox, radio/TV personnel, fans and coaches because he signals the information.
Nowhere in the rules of football does it say that when there is a dispute among officials the referee shall have the final say.

The way you have come across in you posts makes it seem that you say that your call is always better than the other guys and you will make sure it is corrected to what you saw because that is the "right call". Maybe that is not what you are saying, but that is how you are being perceived as coming across. Always remember that perception is reality to those who perceive it.

Great post - you are articulate and obviously not easily drawn into a “you’re not one of us, so shut up” fracas.

Thank you for recognizing that my words may have been twisted. My original question was “When do you think it is appropriate to overrule your partner?” The can of worms was opened and a few took offense at the suggestion that their talent was being challenged by another official. My point was and remains, we may come across a situation that requires us to abandon tradition and recognize our obligation to get the call right. Your sense of self and ability to communicate with your crew dictates how you handle this. I have in no way advocated stepping in and brutalizing a fellow official. A couple of members have implied that and they are wrong. The proof is in my text - read them and see for yourself. The only thing I have advocated was not dismissing the call because someone else made it and "I don't want to step on his toes."

Here are your answers...
It is true in Baseball we have a Crew Chief who manages the umpiring crew, but he has limited authority to correct something on the field. I am on three separate D-1 baseball crews for three different conferences. I am the crew chief on just one and have been party to both making and changing bad calls. I have blown judgement calls and recognize that if my partner(s) is coming to me to sell the right call, he wasn’t doing it to big league me or steal the show. At our level, we pride ourselves on giving the contestants their moneys worth. The game is not about us. That said, I have had situations where my first base partner called a ball a home run when it was clear to me (and the entire third base/defensive dugout) that the ball was foul. This was a conference game - the first of a long double header. As the batter was rounding second, I trotted out to my partner, (my third base partner watched him touch second, third and home) to ask what he saw. He saw the reaction from the dugout and stands and said he thought it was fair. I told him that I was steady and had a good look at it too - and I know it was foul. He knew that I wouldn’t be telling him this if I wasn’t sure. Our mechanic was to head back to our positions and I indicated that the call was “Foul Ball.” I took a few minutes of grief and he was teased by the fans for the rest of the game. He had the plate for the next game and the coach who had the runs taken away looked at him and said, “That was a gutsy call to change.” To which my partner added, “Thanks, but it was the right call.” That was a gutsy reply. We have had the same crew on that conference for six staright years. That call happened in his first year. I guess that they recognize the fact that we don't bury our mistakes.

Now, I blew a dropped foul call in an even bigger game. The catcher trapped the ball against the screen on a ball going away from me. He spun around when I yelled, “Show me the ball.” and held it in his glove for all of us to see. I signalled “Out” and started to walk back to my position. The first base coach and my first base partner came charging in, with the umpire saying, “Easy, Coach - let me talk to him.” - keeping him at bay. (We don’t like assistant caoches!) I could tell that he was certain when he said the ball glanced the netting and was trapped. He was over 100 feet away and I was just ten...I’ve been in the Minors and he’s got only five years of college ball under his belt...the catcher wouldn’t lie to me...I could have fallen back on any of these. Again, he told me what he saw and I trusted his honesty. He didn’t have a bet on the game, he was trying to save my *** and do the right thing...GET THE CALL RIGHT. I was red-assed the rest of the game and my every call received a hoot or a heckle, but we did our jobs.

So, while it is true that you cannot overrule a play that you have not seen - those are words I have never written, by the way (Shame on you, Rut, for insinuating that I did). An official that can do something to correct the call, should. It is really that simple. If you are not comfortable challenging your crewmates before, during or after the game, then a little soul searching is in order. My crew mates are no more important than I and likewise. I trust them and they are excellent officials, but we all make mistakes. Recognizing that we can fix them is the difference.

Is every call reversible? Absolutely not, despite some members challenging me to over rule a ball or strike call by my partner (Again, shame on you, Rut). But, IÂ’ve asked all of my partners to make sure when we walk off the field, have some pride and be sure that we did our jobs. YouÂ’ll know the difference and always remember - the bad calls haunt us forever.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue

Thank you for recognizing that my words may have been twisted. My original question was “When do you think it is appropriate to overrule your partner?”

Uh no, Windy, you're twisting words again. You're original point weeks ago was that one official COULD overrule another official IN BASKETBALL. Baseball was never mentioned. It was pointed out to you that there were written rules in both FED and NCAA BASKETBALL that do not allow one official to OVERRULE another official. Those rules were quoted to you verbatim several times. You've been arguing differently to the point that everyone is sick of the topic. Every official in every sport in the whole damn world wants to get the call right, but you can't substitute your judgement for one of your partners and OVERRULE them if they don't wanna change their call. The basketball rules specifically disallow you from doing that, and apparently the football rules do also. That's all Rut, and many other people, have been trying to tell you, so shame on you for not listening to him.

You obviously aren't gonna change your mind. You obviously aren't gonna change too many other people's minds also, including mine. Why don't you just let it go? Everybody's sick of it.