Overruling your partner?

[WindyCityBlue]

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
My D-1 baseball crews work as a team, too. We don't let our partners kick calls - we push everyone to be better and support each other on and off the field. But, if one of them blows something and one of us has input to correct it, we do. We may look goofy for a little while, but we have been at it for over a dozen years and have our schedules filled for 2005.
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Again, give me an example of how you do this in football?

Have you ever waved off on inadvertant flag?
Have you ever had a younger partner throw a flag for a perceived offense only to have to correct it once he explains what he saw?
Have you ever had one official say "Catch" and another signal "Incomplete" on the same play? One of those guys will be overruled. But, I don't have any example for you. Just the ones that have been mentioned by all of us.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue


Have you ever waved off on inadvertant flag?

I have waved off a flag before, but not an inadvertent flag, whatever that means.

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
Have you ever had a younger partner throw a flag for a perceived offense only to have to correct it once he explains what he saw?

Yes, but I do not change the call, he changes the call. And most of the time they are unclear about what the foul is called, rather than deciding to pick up a flag. For example if we have a chop block as compared to a block below the waist. Or an the officials might call a foul the "halo" rule and we figure out he just had Kick-Catching Interference when we discuss the situation. We still have a foul, we just decide what the foul is.

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
Have you ever had one official say "Catch" and another signal "Incomplete" on the same play? One of those guys will be overruled.

I really think you do not understand what the word "overrule means. If there are two different signals, there obviously has not been a final decision made. Mechanically, there should not ever be two different signals in the first place (there is no catch signal). If the sideline is threatened, the officials should make eye contact and work together to make the call. One might have the feet; the other might have the control of the ball. They have to work together to make a call. One official cannot just make that call alone. Now when the ball is incomplete and multiple officials have to make a decision, it is common to allow the one official that sees the ball hit the ground to make a call immediately. The other officials might not be completely sure if the ball is caught and wait for help from fellow officials. But to suggest that is being overruled is silly. We might work together to make a call, but that does not mean a decision changed. This is not baseball where one person has a call independent of each other. In football and in basketball officials have to look at each other on many possible calls. A decision should never be made without some eye contact or a couple words, then we make a decision. Can you say block/charge.

Peace

[WindyCityBlue]

Are you a friggin' idiot?


Have you never seen an NFL game where one official makes the signal for Completed Pass/Catch and another comes running in and signals that the ball hit the ground first and it is Incomplete? I've seen dozens of these calls and they are done immediately. One guy makes a call, another has a different angle and says no way. THEY GOT THE CALL RIGHT! It was overruled by another official...there was no deliberation, no hurt egos, no Rut mucking up a good system.

You must have a problem understanding the word overrule. How about "he made a bad call, I saw it better and we will get it right because the players deserve it". Will that do it for you?

Wake up!

[Edited by WindyCityBlue on Aug 19th, 2004 at 02:16 PM]

[insatty]

I'm the white hat on a three-man crew working a JV game. A sweep right, and as A1 tries to turn the corner A2 throws a vicious block on B1 who has the best angle to tackle A1. The block is entirely legal: high and, because B1 had just turned, in front.

But out comes HL's flag. I call a conference of we three and I attempt to talk HL out of the flag. HL adamantly refuses to correct his call, out of pure ego. L didn't see the block, so the vote is one against one and I let the call stand.

Although I have many higher-level games and a few years behind me now, my failure to wave off that flag still haunts me to this day.

[WindyCityBlue]

Thank you.

You are obviously wise beyond your years.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
Are you a friggin' idiot?


Have you never seen an NFL game where one official makes the signal for Completed Pass/Catch and another comes running in and signals that the ball hit the ground first and it is Incomplete? I've seen dozens of these calls and they are done immediately.

I am the idiot, but you do not understand that the officials are just working together? That is common? What does that have to do with "overruling" a partner?

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
One guy makes a call, another has a different angle and says no way. THEY GOT THE CALL RIGHT! It was overruled by another official...there was no deliberation, no hurt egos, no Rut mucking up a good system.

MORE THAN ONE OFFICIAL HAS CATCH/NO CATCH RESPONSIBLITY ON THE SAME PLAY!!!! There is almost never a call that only one official is stuck with. NO ONE OFFICIAL IS GOING TO MAKE A CALL WITHOUT A LOOK FROM A FELLOW OFFICIAL. Forward progress, blocking fouls, catch/no catch, TD/no TD calls, all can be made with 2 or more officials. The more officials on the field, the more opportunities to look to each other to get the calls right. It is not like in baseball where only the PU has to determine ball and strikes only. Unless we are talking about the Referee that has VERY SPECIFIC PLAYS WITH THE QB OR KICKER, on every play there is collaboration with a call.

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
You must have a problem understanding the word overrule. How about "he made a bad call, I saw it better and we will get it right because the players deserve it". Will that do it for you?

It is very clear you do not officiate. I cannot believe that someone "claims" to work D1 Baseball is so out of touch with reality and common sense. ALMOST ALL CATCHES ARE MADE WITH 2 OR MORE OFFICIALS IN COORDINATION WITH EACH OTHER.

Peace

[WindyCityBlue]

It is very clear you do not officiate. I cannot believe that someone "claims" to work D1 Baseball is so out of touch with reality and common sense. ALMOST ALL CATCHES ARE MADE WITH 2 OR MORE OFFICIALS IN COORDINATION WITH EACH OTHER.

If your opinion defines "common sense" then why have none of the reality based football officials come to you aid lately? The only ones I've seen are guys who contend that my point of view seems to be the way the world is going.

Occassionally we, as officials, get a call wrong. When that happens and another officials has a different opinion that seems to controvert the first call, we overrule the original for the good of the game. You previousl alluded to a play that involved your crew. Your back crew blew it, BUT, if YOU would have seen that it wasn't a catch, as referee - even though they were right on top of it - you wouldn't have offered to change the call, because your rule book doesn't allow for it. God, you make this easy!

FYI, if two guys are responsible for watching every catch, then why is it that we see those plays reviewed and overturned each Sunday. Maybe, because they got the call wrong and the league understands the responsibility for correcting human error when possible?!? Let's not forget, those guys have officiated more than 18 varisty games.

[GPC2]

Windy,

I think your personal attacks are a bit much.

To be perfectly honest both you and Rut are basically saying the same thing. Both of you are saying that the correct call needs to be made.

He is simply saying that as an official he doesn't feel it is proper to decide that another official has erred. He is saying that the crew gets together and helps the official to see his error and consequently correct his own call. He is not saying leave an obvious error be, he is simply saying that no one official can run in and play God and overrule another official. As a team, the officials work together to get the call corrected.

My take on the matter.....

[PS2Man]

I have been watching this discussion closely.

I have officiated football for 20 plus years. I work some lower level college football as and I personally advanced far in the High School Playoffs.

You never over rule a partner. I will say it again. You never over rule a partner. You might work with a fellow official to come to a conclusion but you never over rule a partner.

Are there calls that can get change? Of course they can. But that is not over ruling a partner.

When a Judge in the court of law over rules a court Judge he or she does that independent of the lower level judge. In officiating and the sports I do that is not the case. A fellow official will have a conversation that might help that official make a call opposite of the original call. In most cases that is done with an understanding in pregame and how it will be done. You still can never over rule a fellow official regardless of how bad you think it is. You have to work together and come to a conclusion. You might even think there was a bad call that was made but that does not give you the right to change a call without their consent or without a conversation.

WCB, you are a travesty to fellow officials. Your name calling is not right and is very unnecessary. Rut has not done anything to you hear to warrant your behavior and your words. You might disagree with his philosophy or many others that do not share your point of view. There is a way to do that without all the terrible behavior on your part. No one is perfect and neither are you. But to suggest that rut is way off base is a disservice to everyone reading this board. Most officials that advance understand what their role is on a football field. You have claimed not to even work football and you are not educated in the ways of knowing what football officials do. I just think you are a sad person that could not be anything you claim to be. I have never met anyone on the level you say you are act as uncouth the way you do constantly. I guess it just goes to show that you are not at those levels.

Now are you going to call me names and tell me what I do not know?

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
If your opinion defines "common sense" then why have none of the reality based football officials come to you aid lately? The only ones I've seen are guys who contend that my point of view seems to be the way the world is going.

This issue is not about how many are on one side. Then how many are on the other side. I did not get to where I have in my officiating career or life just listening to anyone that has an opinion. Sorry, but I am not keeping score.

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
Occassionally we, as officials, get a call wrong. When that happens and another officials has a different opinion that seems to controvert the first call, we overrule the original for the good of the game.

In football we do not have safe and out, balls and strikes. If someone has an opinion, it does not mean we will still not have a call, we might eject a player rather than just give a PF. And just because someone gives an opinion, it does not mean that we will change the decision just because someone disagrees. As a Referee I have had officials try to tell us to administer a rule improperly because they either did not realize the status of the ball. So no you cannot just take an official's word for their point of view.

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
You previousl alluded to a play that involved your crew. Your back crew blew it, BUT, if YOU would have seen that it wasn't a catch, as referee - even though they were right on top of it - you wouldn't have offered to change the call, because your rule book doesn't allow for it. God, you make this easy!

I should not see a catch downfield as a Referee in a 5 man crew. Not sure how I would have knowledge of that play. I have to watch hits on the QB and any actions behind the play. I should not see a pass to where I can tell if it was completed or not.

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
FYI, if two guys are responsible for watching every catch, then why is it that we see those plays reviewed and overturned each Sunday.

The reason those are overturned is because we have 12 cameras and many angles that can catch most plays. They cannot overturn calls that have no conclusive evidence. Also, those plays are repeated on SportsCenter 100 times a night and the NFL thought they could use a system to change plays. But the officials on the field still have to come up with a call and they can only change a call based on what the official on the field called. And now the Big Ten has gone to an instant replay system that is not like the NFL. It is very possible that no calls will get changed during Big Ten game.

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
Maybe, because they got the call wrong and the league understands the responsibility for correcting human error when possible?!? Let's not forget, those guys have officiated more than 18 varisty games.

Let us also remember, that they are going to be evaluated much more then if they get a call right that might get reviewed. They will also be evaluated on flags and who threw them and who did not throw them (not reviewable in any replay system). They will be evaluated on who is in position to make the call. They will be evaluated on if they applied the rule properly (those are almost ever reviewed).

Remember the NY Giants/49ers playoff game? There was an illegal man downfield and a DPI on the same play. The play was not reviewable at all. No flag, no change in the outcome of the game. The officials blew the call and the NFL gave an "apology" and even changed their crew concept for the playoffs as a result. Now what should have happen in that play, there should have been offsetting penalties and NY should have received another opportunity to kick the FG to win the game. And it was hard to argue that this was not a very bad call, but there was nothing that could be done by the officials or the NFL at that time. And if that were to happen today in the Big Ten or NFL, they same result would take place. It would look bad, but it could not be changed. If someone does not throw a flag, you cannot come in and make it a penalty after the fact.

Peace

[cowbyfan1]

Windy it is obvious to me that you are misapplying the term or meaning of overturning your fellow official. Even in baseball you should never overturn your partner. If you call and out on a play at first and I, as PU and UIC were to just come running up and say no your wrong, he is safe, you would be pissed. The is overruling. Now if the coach asks for you to check with me to see if the 1b pulled his foot, you would thhen ask me, I would say yes he did (if he did) and then you would change your call IF YOU WANTED TO. Nothing says you have to change your call, tho in that situation most officials would.

I also worked as a White hat in a varisty game last year. The head coach of team A kept yelling his receivers were being bumped more than 5 yards down field. Next play my LJ throws a flag. I asked him what he had and he told me the defender bumped the receiver more than 5 yards down field. I preceeded to tell him that is an NFL rule, not High school. I then asked him if the defender held the reciever. He said no. I asked him if when the bump happened was the pas in the air. He said no. I then asked him if the bump kept the reciever from getting downfield at all. He said no. I then asked him then you think I should wave off the flag and he said yes. Again I did not overrule him tho I knew he was wrong. I helped him see the error of his way and he changed the call. (yes I know some people would say that a flag was in order for illegal use of hands, but I was looking for advantage/disadvantage and the wing felt there was none so no flag).

So I think what you and Rut have is just a different definition of overrule. I call baseball, football and basketball and I would, nor have I ever "overruled" a fellow official. Also keep in mind, on a basketball court and football field, the chance of 2 officials seeing different things on the same play is alot more likely to happen than in baseball.

[WindyCityBlue]

PS2Man: Here is your hero...but not a travesty of officiating.

Originally posted by JRutledge
Windy go **** yourself. We know there are no women in your life that will do it.



Peace

[PS2Man]

I think he is right.

You need something. A woman. Medication or join the football ranks. I am not sure you would want to lower yourself by doing the right thing.

You might start by admitting you are wrong or that you do not know what you are talking about. Just a suggestion.

[WindyCityBlue]

Originally posted by PS2Man
I have been watching this discussion closely.

You never over rule a partner. I will say it again. You never over rule a partner. You might work with a fellow official to come to a conclusion but you never over rule a partner.

Are there calls that can get change? Of course they can. But that is not over ruling a partner.

You still can never over rule a fellow official regardless of how bad you think it is. You have to work together and come to a conclusion. You might even think there was a bad call that was made but that does not give you the right to change a call without their consent or without a conversation.

WCB, you are a travesty to fellow officials. Your name calling is not right and is very unnecessary. Rut has not done anything to you hear to warrant your behavior and your words. You have claimed not to even work football and you are not educated in the ways of knowing what football officials do.

Now are you going to call me names and tell me what I do not know?

No need to call you names. I can dress you down just fine without them. Why not respond to Rut's quote that I copied and pasted here? Uh, oh...did you really read all of the threads (General, BB, Basketball and Football) relating to this post or just what you wanted? Uneducated people swear when they can't think of a reply to a debate. But, again, I'm the travesty.

I’m glad to see how adamant you are regarding this discussion. “Never overrule your partner’s call.” You should probably give MLB a phone call, since four (4) foul ball homerun calls were overruled this year. They probably did not get the memo that you and Rut did.

IÂ’ve been at this quite a while, as well - on the field and as an instructor at clinics across the country. When you have worked at my level (3 yrs. rostered Minor League, another 8 as a local with the Northern and Frontier Leagues, NCAA D-1/2/3, High School and an American Legion National Championship Series) then you can tell me what is proper mechanically and ethically.

All officials share a code of responsibility and conduct. If you are officiating for more than the money, you probably recognize the importance of getting the call right. We all try to and sometimes fall short. WeÂ’ve all worked with guys who have kicked calls that can be corrected, some of us now how to handle it and get the call corrected. Others appear to want to hide behind tradition and pride. The leagues are making us more accountable. It will be up to you to allow a bad call to stand. What will you do when your partner says "It was a touchdown." and the rest of the crew KNOW it ws not, but he won't budge? Your owns words indicate that youÂ’ve obviously made your choice.

I originally posed this question on the baseball board two months ago. Rut jumped in and showed the world how not to debate. He couldn't let it go...HE POSTED IT ON THE FOOTBALL, BASKETBALL AND GENERAL BOARDS, not I. Another member alerted me to his deeds and by the time I got here, Jumpmaster had already taken him to task for not giving up. I never asked for you to choose sides, but you seem to have received some bad information and your horse came up lame.

[Blue37]

Originally posted by cowbyfan1


(snip)
I also worked as a White hat in a varisty game last year. The head coach of team A kept yelling his receivers were being bumped more than 5 yards down field. Next play my LJ throws a flag. I asked him what he had and he told me the defender bumped the receiver more than 5 yards down field. I preceeded to tell him that is an NFL rule, not High school. I then asked him if the defender held the reciever. He said no. I asked him if when the bump happened was the pas in the air. He said no. I then asked him if the bump kept the reciever from getting downfield at all. He said no. I then asked him then you think I should wave off the flag and he said yes. Again I did not overrule him tho I knew he was wrong.

cowboyfan1: If I understand you correctly, if he had said "No, you should not wave off the flag.", you would not have waved it off. How many yards would the umpire have marked off? What signal would you have given? What would your explanation to the offensive coach have been if he had questioned the call?