Overruling your partner?

[Jaysef]

Thank you logic! Good night and have a pleasant tomorrow...next topic please

[WindyCityBlue]

Jurassic...
I give you my word that I will let this go.

What I ask of you is to go back to my original thread...posted on the baseball site by the way.

It was entitled "When should I over rule my partner?" I archived it on my computer from April 8, 2004. I originated it and when it was closed by the moderators, it was reopened by R.I.T. as "Overruling your partner". So, yes, my original words were twisted. I brought the topic up solely on that Board. R.I.T. did what he always does and argued that you can't overule in any other sport. I gave a football and basketball example of plays that I had seen and you took offense. I never claimed to be knowledgeable of hoops or gridiron mechanics, I just pointed out what I saw. That discussion digressed and was closed again. I posted a follow up about the Big Ten's intention to allow instant replay as a way of justifying "Getting the Call Right", in fact that was the name of the thread. Again, it was ONLY on the baseball site. So, why was R.I.T. compelled to bring iot to the basketball and football boards? What began solely as a baseball discussion devolved because the bigger picture was being ignored.

I thought we had put this behind us, Jurassic. I am not trying to rekindle a brush fire, but I will not allow you to change the facts. You caught the discussion at the mid point, not the beginning.

[Edited by WindyCityBlue on Aug 24th, 2004 at 12:13 PM]

[OverAndBack]

[JRutledge]

Windy,

You keep trying to insult me at every turn. It is your right to do so if you feel necessary. It just makes you look petty and silly.

First of all this discussion started in a baseball context. You then dragged other sports and the NCAA Basketball example (out of bounds play) and said that "overruling was allowed because you saw it on TV." JR came into the discussion and showed you the rules that contradicted your point of view. A couple of other people that work basketball took issue with your point of view as well. Then you brought up the Big Ten experimental rule that will be used this year. But all this is not really the issue.

I asked this question on the basketball and football boards because it appeared that you were afraid to. Instead of asking people that work those sports, you resorted to further insults of the people that you constantly call names. I know what my position is and many in my area think, I thought it would be appropriate to ask the board. This is not the first time I have asked based on discussions with other officials and it will not be the last. I asked this board a question based on a situation that took place in a scrimmage and asked my football association the very same question yesterday night at our last preseason meeting. We had a very spirited discussion and many different points of views based on the stated rules and common practices. No one called anyone names or tried to insult their fellow official.

It is clear that in both basketball and football boards that most do not agree that you can overrule a fellow official. Of course there are people that think you can and I completely respect their opinion. Other than your posts it has been a very interesting discussion. I do not even see why this is an issue that brings out the worst in you? It is just a discussion about a philosophy and not everyone has to stick to that practice. If you think people are on the other side of that philosophy, do not work with them. I have a lot of say on who works on my football crew and if someone is doing something outside of our "crew philosophy" we have the right to not work with them. In the past few years we got rid of two individuals because they did not fly with your "crew concepts." In basketball I can hire who I want to when it comes to some basketball games, and I do not hire officials that do not fit my basic philosophies or do not fit my standards. It is not wrapped up in one point of view or on aspect of officiating.

As I have said before, I have no problem with your presence here. You can post anytime you like as far as I am concerned. When I started this post I did not use your name or your identity to get a point across. I just think it is sad you cannot have a discussion without name calling or trying to take bits and pieces of the conversation and call more names. This conversation was not just about one or two people. It was not on organization or one level against another. I asked this question to measure the points of view on this topic and to see why people feel the way they do on both sides of the topic. I have achieved everything and more in my short career. I will continue to achieve more as I go along, God willing. And along the way there have always been detractors and critics. So if you feel I am not qualified, so what. I asked the question to see what others think and that is what I accomplished. It is time to let it go and move on. Just do not tell us you know more than guys that have worked the sports in question. That is why you were heavily criticized on the basketball board and it seems that is taking place here.

LET IT GO!!!

Peace

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
Jurassic...
1) I give you my word that I will let this go.

2) R.I.T. did what he always does and argued that you can't overule in any other sport. I gave a football and basketball example of plays that I had seen and you took offense.

1) Great idea. Let it go. I'm going to after these comments.

2) There's the problems right there. It wasn't Rut that originated the "overrule" argument. It was me. I made a very simple little statement saying that the basketball rules do not allow an official to OVERRULE another official. I cited the pertinent NCAA and NFHS rules citations to back my statement up. You insisted, and still insist, that it happened in a game that you saw. Well, Windy, unfortunately you do not have the rules knowledge of those sports to interpret properly what you actually saw. What you saw was a basketball official making a call, and then another official coming in with new information on that call, followed by the CALLING official changing his OWN call. That procedure is used in both basketball and football, and there certainly ain't nuthin' the matter with it. That IS "getting the call right"! What it ISN"T is one official OVERRULING another official. If the calling official doesn't wanna change his original call, then he CAN'T be OVERRULED, and his original call WON'T be changed. The rules simply do NOT allow any official to OVERRULE another official. An example of the other problem I have with you is highlighted above also- ie- R.I.T aka Referee-in-Training. I'm sick of your name calling and demeaning comments to not only Jeff Rutledge, but anyone else who has the temerity to disagree with you. I expect more from a fellow official.

Now, let's both let this go. The guys on this forum have already told us how sick they are of seeing this crap going around in circles.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
I expect more from a fellow official.

Now, let's both let this go. The guys on this forum have already told us how sick they are of seeing this crap going around in circles.

Next topic.

Peace

[WindyCityBlue]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

I'm sick of your name calling and demeaning comments to not only Jeff Rutledge, but anyone else who has the temerity to disagree with you. I expect more from a fellow official.


Sorry to disappoint you, I must have missed the memo that put you in charge.



Now, let's both let this go. The guys on this forum have already told us how sick they are of seeing this crap going around in circles.

You jumped back in, ol'man. Now that the water's gotten rough, you want back in the boat. I gave you an opportunity to end this. Go back to the original topic - my topic, since you did not start the thread. Copy it and paste it here... you can't because you know that I'm right. You've succeeded in twisting my words, intent and message. Go ahead and live with bad calls. Don't bother correcting them, even when it causes an end to a team's season or a lost scholarship. You can always fall back on tradition and your interpretation of the rule book. Those NCAA Tourney guys don't have a hing on you.

[Jaysef]

Your repertoire with worn out analogies is epic WCB!!!!! You rule! You rule! You win!

Can you let it go now?

Please?

[PS2Man]

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue

Go ahead and live with bad calls. Don't bother correcting them, even when it causes an end to a team's season or a lost scholarship.

Someone is going to lose a scholarship over one call? If they are the claim they were not on solid ground to begin with. Is that even a true? I have officiated for a long time I can never think of a time where just one call changed a game. If it does the players and coaches let it affect them. There are anywhere to 120-140 plays in a football game depending on the level or the teams playing.

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
You can always fall back on tradition and your interpretation of the rule book. Those NCAA Tourney guys don't have a hing on you.

What is hing?

I can see you do not understand the basics of basketball officiating. Let it go WCB. Is it really all worth this back and forth and name calling? I think you are lying about all your accomplishments. There cannot be anyone with your resume that is that incompetent. Maybe there is a reason Major League Umpires are looked at as confrontational and out there.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue

You jumped back in, ol'man. Now that the water's gotten rough, you want back in the boat. I gave you an opportunity to end this. Go back to the original topic - my topic, since you did not start the thread. Copy it and paste it here... you can't because you know that I'm right. [/B]

"Old man", Windy? That's a little better than some of the things that you've called me. Maybe we're finally getting someplace with you re: professionalism.

I went back and it looks like the original thread was deleted. Whoops-just found it!! This is where it all started.

http://www.officialforum.com/showthr...3&pagenumber=4

However, your follow-up thread should do nicely. It points out your position vs. my position very,very clearly. Note your ACTUAL words in it concerning OVERRULING calls! Do you really want me to waste any more time cutting and pasting those statements of your's out?

Happy reading, Windy! Then give it up.

http://www.officialforum.com/showthr...4&pagenumber=2

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Aug 24th, 2004 at 04:01 PM]

[WindyCityBlue]

Not so fast, Jurassic, you area liar on par with Rut, now.

The first thread you hotlinked was started by Pete Booth, not me. WRONG!

The second was from me, but involved an actual MLB call on Jun 2, 2004...thus the title "Get it Right. MLB Call". It was not the original post from April 8th... AGAIN...WRONG!

Read it and weep...

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue


IÂ’ve been reading a lot of griping about bad calls being made and what we can do about them. I know baseball and take pride in my abilities. But, weÂ’ve all been involved in games where either we or our partner(s) has kicked a call. Not an outside pitch that jobbed a kid in the last inning. IÂ’m talking about the bad home run call, the dropped ball at second or the trapped ball in the outfield (likethe NLCS last year with six umpires and they couldnÂ’t get it right...sorry - deep breath, IÂ’m a Cub fan afterall). IÂ’ve been involved in bad calls on both sides and know that we can do something about them. How you handle it will make the differenece, but I believe that it is incumbent upon us to call the game fairly. That means doing what is necessary to remedy a bad call...even if it costs you with your crew. I know a lot of younger guys are going to say that the Big Dogs are showing them up. To those guys, I say, be careful. The older guys may have seen something that you didnÂ’t OR vice versa Big Dogs. When I go to my partners on a controversial play, they know IÂ’m offering advice on how we can get it right. When they come to me, I trust them to know the same is in order. It doesnÂ’t happen often, but when we have the chance to fix our errors, we need to do it. IÂ’ve seen bad calls get corrected in every major sport,(sorry, but soccer is not a major sport in my book). Major League baseball took away called homeruns several times last year. (I think one was touched by a fan who interfered and the others were bad fair/foul calls. We donÂ’t remember the great calls, but we all wish we could fix the bad ones. I hold myself and my partners to a very high standard because I respect the game. I know how we do it, but IÂ’m interested if you think this is a problem. Have you ever found the need to correct a bad call by a partner. How did you handle it?
[Edited by WindyCityBlue on Apr 8th, 2004 at 10:13 AM]

Oh my, it seems that the innocent question that started it all was taken out of context.
Why should I be surprised by another bad interpretation from our Michigan elder???
Any more bright ideas? Care to paint with a broader brush?

DonÂ’t you just hate it when the facts prove you wrong! You keep quoting my words, I kept pointing out how you twisted them and took snippets from long discussions out of context. Now everyone can see just what was said and what you alleged.

How does that crow taste? Need some shame to wash it down???


Finally, PS2Man, you never worked in the Minors, I did.
If a kid steals on his own and I blow the call and ring him up, he may wind up on a bus home. My bad call + his penchant for being stupid = end of a dream. I guess you've never been involved in a game where you blew a called strike on a close one only to have the kid tag a walk off home run. You are perfect and that is why you hang out here. To show us all how scary your talent is. When did you graduate from Pro School? When did you work in the Minors? What major college conferences do you crew for? When you accomplish those things, you can second guess my advice. Until then, go back to playing the video games taht gave you your moniker. At least those you can master.

[Jurassic Referee]

No response from me. I hope everyone else let's this one die also (please, Jeff).

My apologies to all of the football officials on this forum for wasting your time with this nonsense.

[PS2Man]

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
Finally, PS2Man, you never worked in the Minors, I did.

Is there a point here?

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
If a kid steals on his own and I blow the call and ring him up, he may wind up on a bus home. My bad call + his penchant for being stupid = end of a dream.

Da da de, da da da, da da da aaaaaaa, da da da da life goes on. Was that not a show?

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
I guess you've never been involved in a game where you blew a called strike on a close one only to have the kid tag a walk off home run.

I would never say I have never blown a strike call. If you umpire that is something that is going to happen every now and then. I do not remember as a result that events afterwards happen as you state. I have had calls that I was all on top of and one of the coaches complained and made a big stink about the situation. Then to come back and claim I was right when there player told them what happen.

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
You are perfect and that is why you hang out here. To show us all how scary your talent is. When did you graduate from Pro School? When did you work in the Minors?

Your condescending nature is really getting old.

If you need to know I have never attended pro school because I am probably too old to want to become a pro umpire. Some of us also have jobs and responsibilities that would make becoming a pro umpire very difficult. I make a lot more than what they pay as a Minor League Umpire will make in several years of service. I have a very good job and have to put some children thru college sooner than later.

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
What major college conferences do you crew for? When you accomplish those things, you can second guess my advice.

You work in a major conference in Football? Which one, SEC, ACC or Big Ten? We are talking about football here right?

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
Until then, go back to playing the video games taht gave you your moniker. At least those you can master.

My name has to do with the fact that my kids have me playing PS2 a lot of the time. We have an XBOX, Playstation 2 and Game Cube. I happen to play a lot of Madden with my sons and my children play more of the other systems. I thought it was a funny name and I have many stories with my children because that is one of many things we do together.

My officiating career is something I did before I had them. I wanted a family, not to become the greatest official on this earth. I will say this that I might get some consideration soon at a higher level. I will keep most of that to myself and let you figure it out. The thing is it is not in baseball. I am sure I will make more in a few games than you will make in your entire minor league season if that comes to reality. That is not important but the rest of us are not idiots here. Many of us know what it takes to reach the levels we officiate. You are a sad individual that has all your identity invested in what level you work. I would rather be a good father and good husband and a person respected in the community. Officiating is something I do on the side. All those other things are much more important.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
No response from me. I hope everyone else let's this one die also (please, Jeff).

JR,

I think his post speak for themselves.



Peace

[WindyCityBlue]

PS2Man...sorry it came to that, but you kept digging. I went to Professional School right out of college. I had no allusions about becoming a professional Major League Baseball Umpire, but a funny thing happened. I was very good at it. I was #2 in my class and asked to work Rookie Ball. I did a few years of it before I got burned out on the live and die nature of it all. I bummed around the country for a few years and made a lot of friends at a lot of levels. I travel for business and can afford to work baseball as a luxury, not a necessity. It is not my life, but I am very passionate about doing it well. I can get the same satisfaction out of watching my children excel at school or sports. I appreciate the honesty you've exhibited, but you have to recognize that I can have an opinion about a sport I don't work. I tried to back my argument with facts and support my thesis with my experience. I cannot argue Football mechanics, but I can relate to poor judgement and the necessity to right a wrong. Maybe some day, you will see my point, but I will concede that some officials do not share my passion. It may seem hollow, but if I have offended you, I apologize. My intention was to argue the points on merit and this discussion became a pissing contest.

I shall offer no such truce with Jurassic and Rut. The facts speak for themselves. I gave Jurassic his proof and showed the world his lie. If you have been on these Boards for any amount of time you will recognize that Jeff Rutledge is no stranger to exagerration and hyperbole. (He doesn't like it when you say he lies.) You read the post that started this all. My intent was true and my opinion has never wavered. I may be an opinionated bast*rd in their eyes, but I can support all of my claims and stay on topic. Jurassic, it should be easy to stay quiet - while you are licking your wounds. What? No comment about the actual thread...very sad indeed! Rut/R.I.T. will try to cover his tracks and admit no fault here. "Peace" seems so ironic when it closes his drivel.

[Edited by WindyCityBlue on Aug 24th, 2004 at 08:39 PM]