Overruling your partner?

[JRutledge]

In light of what the Big Ten is doing with instant replay, I want to bounce this question off the board.

Since this is not going to be asked by the person that keep making this an issue.

When is it acceptable to overrule your partner?

Give examples if you can when it is appropriate if you can.

I will stay completely out of this discussion and just throw this out there.

Peace

[SoGARef]

I take the position as the referee that I am no more important than any other person on the field. I have always used this approach. If a crew member makes a call that I do not agree with I will go to him and ask him what did he see. After he explains his call and I still am not sure I will ask him if he thinks his call is right. If he says yes, then we will go with it. If he asks me what I say and think I will then tell him. It is his decision to go or not go with the call. I personally think the worse thing to do is to tell another official you are wrong and we are going to change that call. That is the quickest way I know to destroy the confidence of an official in his own calls. This is a two way street, many times one of my crew members will do exactly what I described to me. It allows me to rehash the situation and work towards the correct application.

[Snake~eyes]

Originally posted by SoGARef
I take the position as the referee that I am no more important than any other person on the field. I have always used this approach. If a crew member makes a call that I do not agree with I will go to him and ask him what did he see. After he explains his call and I still am not sure I will ask him if he thinks his call is right. If he says yes, then we will go with it. If he asks me what I say and think I will then tell him. It is his decision to go or not go with the call. I personally think the worse thing to do is to tell another official you are wrong and we are going to change that call. That is the quickest way I know to destroy the confidence of an official in his own calls. This is a two way street, many times one of my crew members will do exactly what I described to me. It allows me to rehash the situation and work towards the correct application.

This is a great approach, I would hate it if a WH came over and told me he was waiving the flag off, now if he used this approach and he said he saw somthing different then I would agree with the change.

[rdfox]

If the call is a judgment call, I would never overrule...i.e. a block in the back, or possession before going out-of-bounds.

If it is a specific rule call, and, as the R, I have some doubt, I would ask for the facts and make a final decision...i.e. a newer wing official throws a flag and tells me he has an illegal "crack-back" block.

If I have two officials on the crew differing on a call, I would listen to the facts from both, and guide them to the "exception"...i.e. the LJ saw the ball hit the ground on a pass but the BJ thought it was complete. The BJ cannot swear the ball DIDN'T hit the ground - he can only say that he didn't see it hit the ground...whereas the LJ says he did see it hit the ground. So I go with the LJ.

My pet peeve, however, is the wing official who, when confronted by a coach on the sideline about a questionable call by another official, tells the arguing coach, "It wasn't my call, coach". IMHO, that totally undermines the authority of the other official and basically is saying that if it was his call, he would have ruled differently. The wing needs to say, "John was right there, coach...he called what he saw...you and I can't see from here all that he saw."

[Snake~eyes]

Originally posted by rdfox
My pet peeve, however, is the wing official who, when confronted by a coach on the sideline about a questionable call by another official, tells the arguing coach, "It wasn't my call, coach". IMHO, that totally undermines the authority of the other official and basically is saying that if it was his call, he would have ruled differently. The wing needs to say, "John was right there, coach...he called what he saw...you and I can't see from here all that he saw."

I agree. My response is short and simple "Coach it was an incomplete pass" I think it keep coaches from being able to come up with a rebuttal.

[chiefgil]

I had a Referee that wanted to over-rule a PI 30 yards downfield. As the Umpire on that crew, I felt I had to step in and tell the white hat that he had no business making that decision. The BJ made the call in his zone. If the Referee was looking 30 yards downfield, what was happening in the backfield?

[Snake~eyes]

Originally posted by chiefgil
I had a Referee that wanted to over-rule a PI 30 yards downfield. As the Umpire on that crew, I felt I had to step in and tell the white hat that he had no business making that decision. The BJ made the call in his zone. If the Referee was looking 30 yards downfield, what was happening in the backfield?

Just curious, what were the circumstances for overruling?

[chiefgil]

He didn't think PI should have been called. He gave no reason other than he didn't think it should have been called.

He informed the crew at halftime that we were not to throw any more flags for the rest of the game. No matter what!

Well, I just couldn't resist the temptation to throw a flag for "aiding the runner". That almost sent him into orbit. Before he could "wave it off", I picked up the ball and marked off 5 yards. As he stood there looking at me, I asked him if he wanted to give the signal, or did he want me to?

I haven't worked on his crew for the last few years; because now he is a LJ, and I am a white hat.

[PSU213]

Originally posted by rdfox
My pet peeve, however, is the wing official who, when confronted by a coach on the sideline about a questionable call by another official, tells the arguing coach, "It wasn't my call, coach". IMHO, that totally undermines the authority of the other official and basically is saying that if it was his call, he would have ruled differently. The wing needs to say, "John was right there, coach...he called what he saw...you and I can't see from here all that he saw."

I agree totally that the wingman needs to "backup" the call and not just say "it wasn't my call." I do not, however, find it wise to say "I/We can't see that from here." While it may be true that you indeed cannot see "it," I do not think it is wise to give the coach the "ammunition" of your not being able to see it, as that can be twisted in undesirable ways. Anyway, my two cents on the subject.

[Snake~eyes]

Originally posted by PSU213

I agree totally that the wingman needs to "backup" the call and not just say "it wasn't my call." I do not, however, find it wise to say "I/We can't see that from here." While it may be true that you indeed cannot see "it," I do not think it is wise to give the coach the "ammunition" of your not being able to see it, as that can be twisted in undesirable ways. Anyway, my two cents on the subject.

That's basically what I was trying to say lol. Just have a short line that ends the conversation. "Coach it was an incomplete pass."

[jumpmaster]

I wondered when this was going to appear on this side of the board. I would imagine that it doesn't create quite the fireworks it did on the Baseball side.

As a new white hat this is what I do on my crew. The only grounds I have to overrule a call is if a flag was thrown out of zone as indicated in CW4 Gilgen's situation. I would only do this on a judgement play like PI. My reasoning is this, if you can't watch your own zone, what business do you have to be watching another's zone.

As a young LJ I made the mistake of throwing a flag of intentional grounding. My white hat said, calmly, what do you have and why? I told him and he said that is not your call. He waved the flag off. At half-time, he "politely" helped me get things straight. Two lessons learned - 1) call my zone, 2) IG is the WH's call.

[chris s]

Pop-warner action, I was R. Kick-off return, I am tailing runner as he is streaking down HL side for td. HL tosses an illegal block in back, it definately was not, kid engaged from side and blockee twisted and ended up going down from behind. HL was young kid, bout 20, very timid, but getting lots better. I waved off flag and allowed the score. Pissed off that coach, he was a screaming!!! Also defended the kid's calls on many occasion, this one I saw clearly and did the "right" thing, although now I do agree to talk to him first. My Varsity crew chief did that with me on the same type of call, sweep play to my side, we waved it off.

Upon further review, I stepped on toes, not cool.

[jransom]

Did a semi-pro game where we had a pretty good scuffle and some ejections: after the first punch was thrown, I just stood back & started writing down numbers. After everybody calmed down & we sorted things I out, I reported my ejections; One of the players that I witnessed throwing a punch early in the "event" was #20 white. When I reported it, the wing from the far sideline knew that white had two #20's. He went & found the one guy--he had remained on the far sideline during the altercation and the other #20 was one of the captains who supposedely had helped "break it up". So the rest of the crew decided that I must have called the wrong number. I know that a white #20 was fighting; in contrast, there was a white jersey player that I never did get the number on--I could see the second numeral was a "1" but I wasn't going to guess at it--fortunately another offciial got him. What am I supposed to tell the coach on my side on something like this?

[cowbyfan1]

Originally posted by Snake~eyes

That's basically what I was trying to say lol. Just have a short line that ends the conversation. "Coach it was an incomplete pass."

I would tell the coach that I didn't know because I was busy working my area of responsibility. If it was in my area, then I would tell him that if the flag was thrown then it needed to be thrown (or something along those line). May not be the best responses but I am a bit more brunt the some others.

Also I would not overrule my partner(s). Now if I feel they got it wrong, I would ask him some pointed questions to makes sure they they are 100% sure of their call. If it was a matter of catch/no catch I would give my side of what I saw and then see if we come to some type of agreement. If not then revert to original call.

[Edited by cowbyfan1 on Aug 11th, 2004 at 07:37 AM]

[WindyCityBlue]

Uh, oh...just found this,too.

Jumpmaster and Chris S seem to be two more good officials that give examples of this happening. I believe we called it "Getting the Call Right" on the baseball board. It seems that the Big Ten has decided to try an experiment that will assist some already terrific officials in making sure that the right call is made. Since this is just an experiment this season with ramifications for the future, it will surely be scrutinized even more than the original call.

Since only game deciding calls - their words - will be looked at and possibly over ruled by Technical Advisors, it seems like a pretty good start. Will there be problems, undoubtedly, but I bet they bring it back in some form for the rest of D-1 football in the next few years.

By the way, football referees, I do not work in your sport, nor do I pretend to know the intricacies of officiating it. I enjoy watching all levels and may give it a chance someday. More than one of my baseball coaches think I should start now! Until then, I'll leave it to you guys to keep the game fair.