Overruling your partner?

[Ed Hickland]

I faced a problem last year when one of the officials on my crew "yelled" at another over a call. Verboten.

My philosophy is I select officials of good quality and integrity who are willing to do what is right in spite of the consequences. Before the season I tell them they are expected to exercise good judgement and that I respect their judgement. If a dispute arises between two officials including myself, we will conference and determine the correct call. If I do overrule a call we will discuss why after the half.

[WindyCityBlue]

Thank you.
No matter what the contest, the game is bigger than the official. Get the call right and soothe the egos later.

[Simbio]

We have some really good referees in Utah. One of them in their pre-games stresses that not one official is more important than the other. He's also on the state board, and I've heard him say in our meetings "If any of you referees think you're more important than the others on your crew, trying stepping on the field all by yourself and see how well the game goes."

Regardless if you disagree with a call by another official, you should never full on argue about it on the field. If you think a call or decision is wrong, you should always talk about it. Best to get it right on the field than to regret it the next day. It is not good to give the players or coaches the impression that you or anyone on your crew may be wrong on something. At times, the official may just state something wrong, or didn't really think about something. For example, if the referee is giving the options to a captain about a penalty and he states something incorrectly, instead of the umpire telling him "No, that's wrong" he could instead say "Could you repeat that?" giving the referee a chance to rethink what he's just stated. Just a thought.

Remember, we live and die as a team out there....

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
Thank you.
No matter what the contest, the game is bigger than the official. Get the call right and soothe the egos later.

Are you going to advocate an official that has signaled an incomplete pass, and then another official comes in and tells.

Are you going to tell me that if I as the Referee make a call on roughing the passer, my partner has the right to come in and tell me I am wrong?

Now tell me what assignor would advocate that? Jay, Octavio, Loudy?

Peace

[WindyCityBlue]

As usual, Jeff, you missed the point. That's just sad.

You can't focus on the bigger picture, you would rather throw out specific plays and argue about how difficult it would be to get the call right. You would rather argue about egos and taking abunch of grief instead of making sure the game is called justly and equally.

When one of your crew makes a horrible call, do you just stand there and think "Glad that wasn't me." or "He blew it, let him hang."

We know that you never make bad calls, that's why you are working in the NFL. Wait, they make bad calls too, that's why they have instant replay...in order to get the call right!

I'm just glad that others are strating to point out the folly of your philosophy.

[Mike Simonds]

This is a very touchy subject. I was discussing this with one of our trainers and he said that last season one of our officials made a call (not a game I was working at) and the coach asked another official what happened. The official replied that his crew-mate made the wrong call but that it was not in his area so he could not overrule his crew-mate. Well you can imagine how upset the coach was.

We must be all-for-one and one-for-all out there. If we are doing our jobs there should be 2 looks at each play. And if we are absolutely certain then we need to communicate among ourselves (don't hang your fellow official in front of the coach!) and get the right call. But our attitudes must be always honest, brave and show respect. And don't forget humble: every season I've had at least one flag waved-off. I leave my personal pride home before driving to the game.

[ABoselli]

Don't think that a coach who you confide to about another official's 'bad' call respects you any more than the official who made the supposedly bad call.

You do a discredit to your crew, to the official in question, and to yourself if you go cutting the legs out from a fellow official to a coach. Handle a disagreement the right way. "Coach, I was covering a different area on that play" should be the answer to a coach's solicitation of your opinion on a tight play.


You shouldn't see most of the things another official is looking at if you're looking at your own specific keys and your specific area on any given play. Granted, two wings looking in at a dive play can see the same thing, but one may be screened by a body and the opposite wing can see a knee down that his partner didn't. Come together and tell what you saw.

Good calls, bad calls - it doesn't matter. Your only true friends out there are wearing the same shirt you're wearing.

[WindyCityBlue]

Originally posted by Mike Simonds
We must be all-for-one and one-for-all out there. If we are doing our jobs there should be 2 looks at each play. And if we are absolutely certain then we need to communicate among ourselves (don't hang your fellow official in front of the coach!) and get the right call. But our attitudes must be always honest, brave and show respect. And don't forget humble: every season I've had at least one flag waved-off. I leave my personal pride home before driving to the game.

Mike,
Agreed...we can certainly support our crew while getting the call right. If you have to change a call, there is a proper way to do it and it does not involve selling him/her out to a coach. Getting the crew together and admitting that the call needs to be changed - away from prying eyes and ears, is the goal. Big-leaguing your partner or saying "I can't over rule him from here." is B.S., yet we see it on all kinds of fields and courts. We all try to get them right, but sometimes our brain, hands and mouth don't work together. Other times we are sure that we saw something that just didn't happen - hey, we're human. But being in possession of a conscience is what makes us different from the guys betting on the games. If we see something that is obviously wrong, we are obligated to get it right. We have no vested interest in the outcome. Who knows...maybe one of those players will remember us and the job we did, then want to officiate. The guys on the field deserve it.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
As usual, Jeff, you missed the point. That's just sad.

You can't focus on the bigger picture, you would rather throw out specific plays and argue about how difficult it would be to get the call right. You would rather argue about egos and taking abunch of grief instead of making sure the game is called justly and equally.

Windy, if football or any sport, you have to focus on specific plays. As the Referee of my crew, I cannot see PI calls. I cannot see incomplete passes down the field. I cannot call defensive holding on a wide receiver. When I was a wing, I could not judge on roughing the passer calls or roughing/running into the kicker calls. If I am doing my job, I do not even know those things take place.

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
When one of your crew makes a horrible call, do you just stand there and think "Glad that wasn't me." or "He blew it, let him hang."

It is clear you do not understand anything about football. I might not even know a bad call was made until I see tape. I might not be able to tell if I see the tape 100 times. Football is about teamwork and responsibilities. It is not the job of every official to make calls for each other. The only way I know if someone blew a call if we talk about it later or we discuss the situation. Penalties and some plays can be discussed or a very quick conversation can be had so we can agree or disagree.

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
We know that you never make bad calls, that's why you are working in the NFL. Wait, they make bad calls too, that's why they have instant replay...in order to get the call right!

Again, you have a total lack of understanding of football. And in football only a very select of calls can even be reviewed. You cannot review fumbles if the whistle was blown, penalty calls cannot be reviewed and application of the rules cannot be reviewed.

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
I'm just glad that others are strating to point out the folly of your philosophy.

Windy, not one person is taking an issue with my point of view on this. Not one person is saying my point of view is flawed. You (a baseball only official) are the only person telling us how different my opinion is from everyone here. In football we work much more as a team than in any sport I work. There are several calls that we have to look to each other before a call can be made. But there are plays that can NEVER be changed or made without the original calling official deciding to change. If two officials both make an opposing signal, neither call is right or wrong. But a decision has to be made either way. I have given you several examples of how it works in football and all you keep coming back to is what the NFL is doing or the Big Ten. I am just waiting for you to give us an example outside of that instant replay argument how another officials can "overrule" another. It is not hard to do. I am trying to have this discussion based on the issue, not the personalities at play. Again, you do not work football but you come here and to the basketball board to tell folks that work the sport what they can and cannot do. Why don't you ask those in your area what they do and what is acceptable? I was at the IACAO Clinic all weekend and even gave a presentation and no one uses that language or tried to suggest that any officials could change a call without consent or consultation with the calling official.

BTW, stop taking one individual and make it seem like everyone agrees with your point of view. There have been several people that suggest you cannot "overrule" a partner. Why not reference those people?

Peace

[WindyCityBlue]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JRutledge

Windy, if football or any sport, you have to focus on specific plays. As the Referee of my crew, I cannot see PI calls. I cannot see incomplete passes down the field. I cannot call defensive holding on a wide receiver. When I was a wing, I could not judge on roughing the passer calls or roughing/running into the kicker calls. If I am doing my job, I do not even know those things take place.

Okay, and your point is...what??? No one has ever suggested that we just over rule guys without seeing the play! But, if I see something and and pertner(s) made the wrong call in my estimation, there will be time to get it right. The coaches and players will surely delay because of the bad call and that will allow me the opportunity to ask my partner what he saw and present what I saw. Since my partners have evolved to a point where they recognize I wouldn't be trying to show them up, they usually acquiesce. We would rather get the call right and earn the respect of the contestants than look good. Apparently you would rather let your partner hang when you see him miss a call.

I might not even know a bad call was made until I see tape. I might not be able to tell if I see the tape 100 times. The only way I know if someone blew a call if we talk about it later or we discuss the situation.

The first sentence tells us all about your talent. The second reinforces it and the last confirms it. Every training clinic that I've ever attended or taught at has video taped replays for discussion. Even the greenest rookie will walk away knowing the error after we look at it.



Again, you have a total lack of understanding of football. And in football only a very select of calls can even be reviewed. You cannot review fumbles if the whistle was blown, penalty calls cannot be reviewed and application of the rules cannot be reviewed.

Again, what is your point??? No one has ever said that every play is reviewable. Are you off your medication again?



Windy, not one person is taking an issue with my point of view on this. Not one person is saying my point of view is flawed. If two officials both make an opposing signal, neither call is right or wrong.

So, you have two officials making opposite calls and neither call is right or wrong...why are they on the field?


I am trying to have this discussion based on the issue, not the personalities at play.

Hahahahahahahahahahah! Personalities??? This is a basic philosophical difference. Your pride is blinding you to your responsibility. If you see a partner make an obviously bad call and do nothing to correct it, you are as bad.


Again, you do not work football but you come here and to the basketball board to tell folks that work the sport what they can and cannot do.

No...I tell them what they should do. You have told all of us that you won't wok to get the call right. My D-1 baseball crews work as a team, too. We don't let our partners kick calls - we pussh everyone to be better and support each other on and off the field. But, if one of them blows something and one of us has input to correct it, we do. We may look goofy for a little while, but we have been at it for over a dozen years and have our schedules filled for 2005.



BTW, stop taking one individual and make it seem like everyone agrees with your point of view. There have been several people that suggest you cannot "overrule" a partner. Why not reference those people?

As usual, you read what you want. Try going back over the last few posts and read them again. I beleive that most of them reference times when it was imperative to get the call right by overruling a call.

Peace [/B]

[jumpmaster]

Originally posted by JRutledge
[B] But there are plays that can NEVER be changed or made without the original calling official deciding to change.

Jeff, this is a correct statement and I (and WCB) will happily concede this. However, there are circumstance when we as officials are overruled. Earlier in this thread I cited a personal experience a call that was overruled by my white hat. I flagged the quarterback for IG. The white hat waved my flag off because, in HIS judgement, it was not IG. I was out of position and not covering my area. 2 mistakes on my part that resulted in my flag being waved off.

Originally posted by JRutledge
[B] I was at the IACAO Clinic all weekend and even gave a presentation and no one uses that language or tried to suggest that any officials could change a call without consent or consultation with the calling official.

Experience has taught me that when you start making statements such as "...no one uses that language..." you are either ignorant of the situation or working within a very small pool of people. Funny thing, I know of 3 NCAA officials who believe that you are off base and attempting to apply absolutes to a very fluid situation, seems like poor judgement (based on your credentials) or a lack of experience.

I will offer this point - as the skill level of the official increases, fewer of these overule/change types of situations occur.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by jumpmaster

Jeff, this is a correct statement and I (and WCB) will happily concede this. However, there are circumstance when we as officials are overruled. Earlier in this thread I cited a personal experience a call that was overruled by my white hat. I flagged the quarterback for IG. The white hat waved my flag off because, in HIS judgement, it was not IG. I was out of position and not covering my area. 2 mistakes on my part that resulted in my flag being waved off.

The White hat is the only person in a 5 man crew or 6 or 7 that has IG calls. You cannot call IG calls from any position. I would not call that being "overruled" I would call that the officials that has the call is not allowing you to make that call. On all penalties in football, the plays can be discussed and if information is given, you might pick up the flag. But that is not overruling another partner, that is discussing the situation and coming to a conclusion. A great example of this would be on a DPI call, when the ball is tipped at the LOS and the Umpire and the Referee see the ball touched. Then the Back Judge is not aware of the tip and calls DPI incorrectly and throws the flag. Then when the BJ comes to the Referee and tells him what he has. The Umpire and Referee ask him "did you see the tipped pass?" The Back Judge might say, “no I did not, I will pick up the flag." The BJ in that situation did not have his call changed by us; he decided to change his own call. Because as a WH and Umpire, we do cannot always determine when the contact occurred that the BJ saw, he has to make the right decision himself. As a crew we might help him and a good official will take that information to heart and change his call, but we do not change that call.

Originally posted by JRutledge
Experience has taught me that when you start making statements such as "...no one uses that language..." you are either ignorant of the situation or working within a very small pool of people. Funny thing, I know of 3 NCAA officials who believe that you are off base and attempting to apply absolutes to a very fluid situation, seems like poor judgement (based on your credentials) or a lack of experience.

I belong to the Central Officials Association in Chicago. In the COA we have about 15 Big Ten Officials, currently on the Big Ten Staff. Three Big Ten Crew Chiefs are COA members, Steve Pamon, Jim Lepetina, and Bill LeMonnier. We have of the Technical Advisors for the Big Ten, that will be apart of the "Instant Replay" activities, Tom Quinn and Jim Keogh, both former long time Big Ten Officials. The official that made the famous TD call in the Michigan State-Notre Dame with Charles Rogers was Jack Lyman as Back Judge. We have 3 current NFL officials in our group, Michael Banks, Rich Reels and Tony Michalek. I have for the past 5 years heard these individuals speech every year at regular meetings and clinics and have never heard them talk about "overruling" and that being an acceptable practice. NEVER, NEVER, NEVER. I have never heard the many other officials that I did not mention in the Big Ten or that work the D3 and JUCO conferences in our area use that language their presentations. I work with a crew that has worked 2 State Finals in Illinois, they do not use that language or that practice in the games I work with them. I have been on 2 varsity crews in my career, I have never had anyone on those crews use that language. I have filled in with many other crews with IHSA Clinicians and many playoff officials; they do not use that language. The playoff crew I worked with during my first playoff game, we did not use that language. My IACAO Presentation talked about situations to help each other and work together, I did not use that language and anyone that was asked to participate in my presentation, did not use that language.

Originally posted by jumpmaster
I will offer this point - as the skill level of the official increases, fewer of these overule/change types of situations occur.

I will tell this story to sum this all up.

I had a varsity game about 2 years ago. This was my first full year as Referee. We happen to have CBS Channel 2 Chicago was at this game. CLTV showed highlights of this game and play I will describe.

The QB rolls out to the right and makes a pass. I have coverage of the QB and only see his release. The QB throws a pass in the end zone, I hear the crowd and see both my Back Judge signal TD and Line Judge signals incomplete pass. I run to their discussion and all I say, “what do you guys have." I do not tell them what to do; we just needed to clarify what our ruling was. The LJ backs off, mainly because the BJ had a better look at the play and tells me we have a touchdown. I signal TD to the press box. The CBS TV truck was sitting near that end zone and they had a camera that had a great look at the play. My Linesman did not see the play. My Umpire was not sure or could not rule on the play. Of course I was watching the QB to make sure he was not hit illegally, so I had no idea of what happen on the play. My Linesman and Umpire were asked by a technician from CBS to look at the play as we were going locker room. The play was clearly an incomplete pass. An offensive and defensive player both go after the ball but no possession was gained by either. My Back Judge (no longer on my crew) ruled they had dual possession. The only person that could have changed his mind was the LJ and he had doubt himself. When they discussed the play on the field, we had to go with what they decided. It was a TD that was clearly the wrong call. None of the other officials could do anything but accept their call. If the TV cameras were not there, I still would have no idea what actually took place on this play. So how could we "overrule" their call? It was wrong, but we had to live with it. We do not have instant replay; we would not have had the benefit of other officials on the field to change the call. We had to live with their call. All I could do as a WH is have them make a clear decision.

Tell me what we should have done differently? What could we have done? What could I have done?

I really would like to know?

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue


Okay, and your point is...what??? No one has ever suggested that we just over rule guys without seeing the play! But, if I see something and and pertner(s) made the wrong call in my estimation, there will be time to get it right.

OK, what if they disagree with you? What if they know they saw the entire play? What if the rules do not allow a change to be made? You are still changing the call?

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
The coaches and players will surely delay because of the bad call and that will allow me the opportunity to ask my partner what he saw and present what I saw. Since my partners have evolved to a point where they recognize I wouldn't be trying to show them up, they usually acquiesce. We would rather get the call right and earn the respect of the contestants than look good. Apparently you would rather let your partner hang when you see him miss a call.

Windy, you really need to read all the responses. In football there are many situations that I can and have provided information. But that is all it is, providing information. And I can provide information in football, but not see the entire play at all. As a Referee there are several situations where I can ask questions, but it is up to the calling official to decide in the end. As it relates to basketball, I can only provide information, the calling official (foul calls) have to make the final decisions. Even on an out of bounds call, the calling officials mechanically and logically have to make the final call. There is a reason they made, it is not my job to tell them they messed up.

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
The first sentence tells us all about your talent. The second reinforces it and the last confirms it. Every training clinic that I've ever attended or taught at has video taped replays for discussion. Even the greenest rookie will walk away knowing the error after we look at it.

It does? So a catch on the other side of the field, I am supposed to know if the receiver was out of bounds? I am supposed to know if a low pass in the opposite side zone was caught? Windy, football and basketball is not baseball. Much of our job is to watch off-ball or things behind the play. If I am watching the ball all the time, I will miss illegal blocks, cheap shots, Roughing penalties, and screens and off-ball fouls in basketball. Baseball most of the time there is one ball and nothing can happen without knowledge of the ball. Most of the time an umpire needs to know where the ball is to make a decision. Not the case in football and basketball. Not at all the case.

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
Again, what is your point??? No one has ever said that every play is reviewable. Are you off your medication again?

My point is that anyone that says that I should know if my partner made a bad call on a football board, it is very clear you have no understanding of the mechanics, procedures and rules of football. Anyone reading your post can see that.

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
So, you have two officials making opposite calls and neither call is right or wrong...why are they on the field?

Well right and wrong might not be determined until you see video tape. In football and basketball we get a lot of video tapes on games. If we have a call or a questionable situation, we see the tape. In both basketball and football we have a common saying, "make calls for the video tape." Maybe in your experience you have worked baseball games where video tape is common. But I have cannot serious remember a time a HS varsity or college games were video taped in baseball. It is rare that I work any basketball or football game at the HS or college level. Especially in football.

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
Hahahahahahahahahahah! Personalities??? This is a basic philosophical difference. Your pride is blinding you to your responsibility. If you see a partner make an obviously bad call and do nothing to correct it, you are as bad.

Who said anything about not correcting a call? I have never said I would not provide information. Reading is a skill. But I also have responsibilities and it is not my job to make sure all my partner's calls are correct. Maybe that is something you do, but not me. I want you to tell me the last time you changed a pitch that you partner behind the plate made? Are you going to claim to us that you have never seen a pitch you felt was all over the plate and you did not change it? Why not change those obvious bad calls? It is an obvious and bad right? You should be able to change it right?

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
No...I tell them what they should do. You have told all of us that you won't wok to get the call right.

"Wok to get the call right?" What does that mean? I will give information, but I have stated that 1000 times already.

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
My D-1 baseball crews work as a team, too. We don't let our partners kick calls - we pussh everyone to be better and support each other on and off the field. But, if one of them blows something and one of us has input to correct it, we do. We may look goofy for a little while, but we have been at it for over a dozen years and have our schedules filled for 2005.

Again, give me an example of how you do this in football? Baseball is not relevant to this discussion really. On my football crews and the basketball officials I work with we do the exact same thing. But there are things that happen we cannot help each other on. I know I do not see all penalties in football, I just make sure based on the information I am given to administer it correctly. If one person messes up, we all mess up. But that does not mean the call was correct or that the holding was actually there. It means that we enforce it from the proper spot and mark off the proper yardage and play from the proper down. But I cannot tell my partner "you messed up that call" when I or others did not see it. And that is not "overruling" that is making sure we apply the rule properly. That is not telling my partner that his "judgment" is flawed. There is a difference.

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
As usual, you read what you want. Try going back over the last few posts and read them again. I beleive that most of them reference times when it was imperative to get the call right by overruling a call.

There is a difference between "over ruling" a call and "changing" a call. And in the rules of football do not allow another official to "over rule" anyone.

Peace

[WindyCityBlue]

When they discussed the play on the field, we had to go with what they decided. It was a TD that was clearly the wrong call. None of the other officials could do anything but accept their call. If the TV cameras were not there, I still would have no idea what actually took place on this play. So how could we "overrule" their call? It was wrong, but we had to live with it. We do not have instant replay; we would not have had the benefit of other officials on the field to change the call. We had to live with their call.


Take your medication before you hurt yourself.
When has ANYONE said to overrule something you didn't see?
Your opinions and advocacy of leaving plays stand is becoming utter insanity. I don't care who you seen speak or who you've talked to, none of those guys would have a job at that level if they saw an obvious error be made and let it stand. I work at the Division 1 level and you do not. Don't try to tell me what we do as crews. We know that getting here is easy, staying here is tough. You do not get to keep our schedules without making sure the game is called fairly. You may take some heat at the momemt of decision, but in the long run, the ADs and Director of Officiating for that conference will back you if you keep showing that you will do whatever you have to in order to make the right call. Stop pretending that these calls don't happen. They occur in almost every sport when the officials care about their jobs. BTW, I've known Lapetina, Lyons, LeMonnier and Honig for over a decade. One thing is certain, they expect perfection on the field and will do whatever is necessary to insure that they do not end up on the highlight reel for kicking a call and letting it stand. Name dropping won't work with me.

[WindyCityBlue]

It is rare that I work any basketball or football game at the HS or college level. Especially in football.


Wow, that was a clever use of language. Was it English?

I asked someone to translate it for me and he jumped off a building right after reading it.

So, you don't work highschool and college basketball and football???


To All Other Board Readers: Please refrain from laughing, it will hurt his feelings. We all know that if we have a serious football question, we need only direct to our football friend from Wheaton, Illinois. Especially if it deals with football. ;}